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HelicopterMain Discussion › Transitioning to full scale
04-22-2002 11:00 PM  15 years agoPost 21
Brian Sheets

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TEXAS CITY

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transition is not bad, getting screwwed up in a R22 IS WORST.

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04-22-2002 11:47 PM  15 years agoPost 22
rsilvers

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Marshfield, MA

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In my area, R22 lessons are $195 an hour. Schwiezer lessons are $225. That is a $1200 difference over 40 hours. Is there anyone that would recommend paying more for the Schwiezer? I thought current thinking was that an R22 is good whereas 10 years ago they had less acceptance.

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04-23-2002 01:24 AM  15 years agoPost 23
7lbs

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Atlanta

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Yes the R-22 is a difficult helicopter to fly, yes it is small and you get comments from people saying "wheres the rest of it?" yes it is cheap, and yes it has out sold every other helicopter in the world. Why do you think it is used for training? Because it is cheap and incredibly reliable, the only reason there are accidents on them is because they are mainly used by low time pilots and they do make mistakes, which sometimes prove to be fatal. Another reason it is used it because it IS the hardest helicopter to fly, why would you learn on the easiest one because then when it comes down to it you wouldn't be able to fly every helicopter. It is cheap, which is why Robinson have become one of the most succesful helicopter manufacturers in the world, lets be honest, how many people could afford to learn to fly on a Bell 206 which goes out for $700 an hour, not many, or if there are people like that how come they don't have their own helicopter? If they would what do you think it would be? An R-22. Basically all I have to say to all the people who are slating the Robinson R-22 without ever flying one, and no, 1 hour of flying one doesn't count as having experience in one, is to actually learn to fly one (not hold the controls while the instructor flies it) and then maybe you can comment.

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04-23-2002 02:03 AM  15 years agoPost 24
jonnyergo

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Palm Beach , Fl + Hereford , UK

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Trust me Mr.Mcallister know his stuff so dont bother coming back with any form of arguement.

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04-23-2002 02:09 AM  15 years agoPost 25
rsilvers

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Marshfield, MA

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I don't think anyone will disagree with what he said. They are safe and if they crash more it is only because of the high use for instruction. They are harder to fly than many others. All true. The part I would question is the logic that I should learn on the hardest to fly so that I can fly anything else later.

Gee, then I learned to ride a motorcycle I did not learn to ride on one that is hard. I had enough other problems. Once I knew all the basics I transitioned to a heavy Harley easily -- but I did not want to start with a difficult bike. Not do I *want* to learn how to auto rotate on a heli that has low rotor momentum, although I may end up doing that because it is cheapest.

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04-23-2002 02:17 AM  15 years agoPost 26
7lbs

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Atlanta

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Learning in a low inertia helicopter will give you some quick reactions to engine failures, which will serve you well in other helicopters.

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04-23-2002 02:41 AM  15 years agoPost 27
rsilvers

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Marshfield, MA

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No, for example you could learn in a Shwiezer, then when you want to fly an R22 you hire an instructor and transition to it and practice autos. Why would I be more likely to kill myself in an R22 as a 1000 hour pilot rather than as a 45 hour pilot?

I am not saying I should not learn in an R22 -- I probably will. I am just arguing if it makes sense to learn in the hardest to fly helicopter (assuming an R22 is the hardest).

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04-23-2002 02:58 AM  15 years agoPost 28
7lbs

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Atlanta

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OK I see your point. What ever helicopter you learn to fly in its fun. I personally cannot think of anything more exciting or rewarding than flying real helicopters, especially in Florida!
Have fun whichever route you choose.

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04-23-2002 03:49 AM  15 years agoPost 29
driftrider

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Cedar Rapids, IA. (In my own little world)

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Hey Andy,

What does the FAA say about buzzing occupied vehicles? I thought I remember reading an FAR about flying within so many feet of a vehicle was prohibited unless necessary for landing?

My copy of the FAR's is in buried in a closet somewhere, but I'd suggest you review the FAR's before you chase anymore boats and jetskis at 30ft.

That kind of flying sounds a little irresponsible to me, especially if done by someone with only 10 hours in the aircraft.

Please be careful and responsible when you fly.

Mike

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04-23-2002 05:09 AM  15 years agoPost 30
fitenfyr

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Port Orchard, Washington

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R22 the hardest???

R22's are not IMO the "hardest" heli to fly. I feel a larger turbine presents more of a challenge than a R22. And yes as I stated I do have more than 1 hour of stick time in one so my opinon counts right?

The R22's are a very UNforgiving aircraft. You just don't make many major mistakes and get to come home to talk about them. This applies to pretty much all helis, but major is a realtive term here.
Riddle me this? How come a max 220lb (Not dead on with this but real close) seat weight in a R22B? Must have something to do with the design? Maybe that Low enertia rotor???? Now I don't have a 300C manual too look at, but do they have a max seat weight? I don't think so they pretty much have the same restrctions as any other aircraft. Standard weight and balance.
This is the primary reason I don't fly helis anymore. I don't have any other type of heli to train in around here. I am 6'5" and about 265 so no go on the R22. I was right on the boarder when I did fly them at about 220 on a light lunch day.
My opinion. If you have the choice of an R22 or any other reasonably priced heli to train in. Go with the other heli. I think you will be a better pilot in the long run.
If you are serious about doing this then look to a good school where you can get quality training. I looked at Andy's site before. Looks like a nice place to learn. I would venture to say the "30ft chasing jet ski's" was a little youthfull exuberisim(sp). Do we need to tell your Dad????

You will not be disappointed about learning to fly no matter which aircraft you choose. JUST GO FLY!!! AND DON'T STOP!

Now how about that Raptor 30 which is better the Sceadu, Hawk, Fury, TSK, PHI........Hmmmm am I seeing a trend here.......

Jason

Jason Stiffey
Fly Fast....Live Slow...

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04-23-2002 05:54 AM  15 years agoPost 31
SemiArticulate

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On Location

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The R22 is the one to learn on if possible. If you can fly that then you can fly any of them. A high time R22 pilot is the best to get in a heli with, no matter what you are flying in. That is because the R22 is a piston heli and piston helis will have problems. You will get to do a real auto if you fly one long enough. The R22 is also low inertia so you got to get the collective down at the slightest hint of trouble. That all may sound bad on the surface but it with proper instruction and a good head on your shoulders the R22 is as safe as any of them and will make you a real pilot. The R22 weeds out those that want to 'hot dog' via Darwin. "30 ft chasing boats and jetskis" won't last. People really do this (flying that close to water that is) and it is a good way to get killed. With an R22 or any piston powered heli, you never ever want to be on the wrong side of the height velocity curve. You can get by with it on a turbine but if you fly a turbine with a piston mindset then you will be a very safe pilot. I will get in an R22 with a high time R22 pilot yet I will not get into a jet ranger with a low time pilot. If you want to be as safe as possible, you want a proven turbine helicopter but you also want lots of time in an R22. IMHO.

BUT. If you never intend to fly anything other than one type of helicopter then yes there is no real reason to spend time in a r22 etc. I suspect most pilots fly helis to try to make money off them and don't keep one as a toy. Although those people are out there. Those people are also the reason the 'affordable' helis tend to have poor safety records. If you own a piston heli (such as an R22) and you don't fly it everyday and practice autos etc. then you will likely die. Turbine helis are for the weekend private pilots but they usually can't afford them.

Now andy is right in one big respect. If you learn on a high inertia system, you don't want to be flying a low inertia system. You can go from low to high but not high to low without some serious stick time on the low inertia heli with a good CFI. Helicopter pilots have died because they did not understand that. I know a guy that lost his R22 when he rented it to such a pilot. The pilot was showing his friend how to recover from low rotor RPM. Of course, this was stupid but he was accustomed to high inertia systems. The blades stalled, went through the cabin as it fell and chopped off the head of the passenger. Which didn't matter anyway because they fell to their death in the helicopter. Wasn't the fault of the helicopter, it was the idiots inside. I'd say more than 95% of deaths in certified helicopters are due to complete stupidity on the part of the operator. They give you options you don't have in any other aircraft and it is those options which are the problems. They can land in small spaces therfore people try to land them one foot from a power line. They can fly close to the ground therefore people violate the height velocity curve. They are very maneuverable therefore people try to fly between buildings. The list goes on. In the hands of someone with a brain, they are probably the safest of all aircraft. The brain is the most important feature.


Edited for mistake, thanks Andy

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04-23-2002 10:41 PM  15 years agoPost 32
7lbs

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Atlanta

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The 300 has 2 equal tanks on either side of the mast I think, so you can sit on either side as long as they are filled teh same, whereas a 22 has a main tank on the left hand side and an aux tank on the right, so solo must be carried out from the right seat. I think taht is what your asking.

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04-24-2002 12:16 AM  15 years agoPost 33
SemiArticulate

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On Location

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There is no good reason for a civilian to violate the height velocity curve. Vietnam was a war. If people are shooting at you then you can violate any other safety precautions. A lot of helicopter pilots died in Vietnam. Anyone who flies a civilian piston powered helicopter in the aviod curve should have their license revoked as there is no point to it other than to have a death wish. I also don't get your point about the RC. For one thing, if they crash you will walk away from it. So it is different when you only have money on the line. Second, I'd like to see a plot of the height velocity curve on a model heli. With the wild ratios and pitch range of our RC helis, I doubt they really have one as a practical matter.

The guy in the R22 died because he thought he had a few seconds to get the collective down after the warning. But in an R22 you only have 1.3 seconds. I think he had little, if any, time in a low inertia heli.

I am not trying to pick on anyone or scare anyone, but all I am saying is that real helis are not for 'hot dog' pilots.

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04-24-2002 01:30 AM  15 years agoPost 34
7lbs

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Atlanta

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Semi, are you sure it was retreating blade stall that killed that pilot? I somehow don't think so. An R-22 has a hard time going fast enough to get retreating blade stall. Apparently during the certification of the aircraft, they struggled to demonstrate it getting into, and out of retreating blade stall since it wouldn't go fast enough. Maybe it was low rotor RPM he was demonstrating? And if so, you CANNOT escape when the blades stall. You could lower the lever and do all you want but as soon as the blades have stalled you are dead. When they stall they fold straight up and stop instantly. There is NO way to recover from blade stall.

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04-24-2002 01:35 AM  15 years agoPost 35
SemiArticulate

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On Location

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Ahh crap, I screwed up. I just meant blade stall, low rotor RPM. That did sound stupid. I'll go fix it.

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04-24-2002 01:49 AM  15 years agoPost 36
driftrider

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Cedar Rapids, IA. (In my own little world)

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I wholeheartedly agree with SemiArticulate. Nap-of-the-Earth flying was developed and implemented during the Vietnam War after China and Russia sold (or gave) a bunch of first generation shoulder-fired SAMs to the NVA and VC. Thing about those early IR seekers was that you had to have a good look at the targets exhaust pipe for a relatively long period before they'd reliably lock on. The best way to counter such a threat was to fly a few feet above the treeline and down into clearings and valleys so the enemy wouldn't get a long look at you. Of course, the down side is that it puts you into range of small arms fire and at risk of collisions with trees and such, but at least you've got a chance.

In the military things are done a lot differently because if you fly like a civilian, you'll die like a civilian. The are no FARs in combat. The FAA mandates certain laws and regulations to prevent loss of life and property, both of the aircraft/passengers and those on the ground.

Killing yourself is one thing, but putting bystanders at risk is quite another. Also remember that all a person has to do is get your tail number and make a phone call to the FAA and you'll probably have an investigator breathing down your neck. I don't want to see you blow your chances of get your certificate, and I don't want to read about an R-22 in Florida crashing killing you and your Dad.

Just think through your decisions, be responsible, and be safe.

Mike

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04-24-2002 02:05 AM  15 years agoPost 37
7lbs

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Atlanta

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Helicopters do most of their commercial work in the avoid curve. Otherwise people would use planes.

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04-24-2002 02:16 AM  15 years agoPost 38
driftrider

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Cedar Rapids, IA. (In my own little world)

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Hey, don't take it personally, I'm not chewing your butt, I'm merely concerned for your safety and that of others. Pilots with a lot more hours than your Dad have bought the farm because the machine/ground doesn't care how much experience the pilot has. I won't claim to be a saint, but wrecking a modern car at 75 MIGHT kill you, crashing an aircraft at 75+ almost always WILL kill you.

Just relax, this is not intended to bust on you or your stepdad, I just feel that it is my responsibility as another (student) pilot to "police my own."

Mike

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04-24-2002 02:32 AM  15 years agoPost 39
7lbs

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Atlanta

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If you're ever in town look us up, we'll give you a fly around and we promise to stay above 500ft
Hope your flying goes well, let me know how you get on, I know how tricky it is in the beginning but its all good fun.
Speak to you later

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04-24-2002 02:39 AM  15 years agoPost 40
driftrider

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Cedar Rapids, IA. (In my own little world)

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I'd love to fly a heli, someday I hope to be licensed on one, but for the near future the costs are prohibitive. I have 30 hours in a Cessna 150, but I had to stop training because the money ran out (college became more of a priority, because I want to get my degree before I'm 30). But if I do somehow end up in Florida, I might take you up on that offer.

Mike

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HelicopterMain Discussion › Transitioning to full scale
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