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HelicopterMain Discussion › Gas vs Electric
08-31-2017 09:21 PM  78 days agoPost 1
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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Why don't we have more electric powered helis, cars, golf carts, airplanes, etc ?

How about low cost convenience ?

Electric vehicles have very limited range and take forever to recharge.

I decided to run some numbers.

Gasoline has about 46 Mj/Kg - - that's about 125 Mj/gallon
Since a Joule = 1 watt second, that/s about 35,000 watt hours/gallon
- - about $5.25 electric cost.

Let's say it takes about 5 minutes to fill a 20 gallon gas tank.
That's 700,000 watt hours in 5 minutes to "refill" the car,
or about 8.4 Mega watts for 5 minutes.

- - - or 1.21 Gigawatts for 2 seconds - - that'll move the Delorean.

At the gas pump, that amount of energy transferred in 5 minutes is easy.
At the electric outlet, it's another story.
Try 35,000 amps at 240 volts for 5 minutes to "recharge" the battery

It's not quite that bad . . . since only about 1/3 of the energy from gasoline energy gets to the wheels, and the electric version is likely only about 75% efficient, you're down to about 15,500 amps at 240 volts.

Even if you take one hour for lunch, that's still 1,300 amps at 240 volts. (if your battery can be charged at 1X)

Even if you connect directly to the 13,200 volt local distribution grid, that's still about 24 amps for one hour.

Somebody want to check my numbers ?

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08-31-2017 09:40 PM  78 days agoPost 2
Dan Minick

rrKey Veteran

Columbus, WI

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Same reason I never sold my glow helis. Electric isn't any easier or cheaper, it may be cleaner, but not easier.

Team Synergy, Team FBL Rotors-------if its not broke...it will be!

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08-31-2017 09:52 PM  78 days agoPost 3
GyroFreak

rrProfessor

Orlando Florida​...28N 81W

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Interesting, thanks for the info. Will check it later.

I think about the hereafter. I go somewhere to get something, then wonder what I'm here after ?

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08-31-2017 10:13 PM  78 days agoPost 4
InvertedDude

rrApprentice

USA

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AirWolfRC

I am keeping my nitros. Not selling off my Raptor 50 titans!

I don't mind electrics for local parks to fly, they are nice. Nothing like Oil, no substitute for it at the moment.

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08-31-2017 11:11 PM  78 days agoPost 5
fastflyer20

rrKey Veteran

N. Tonawanda, NY

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I have often wondered about the full life cycle of energy/fuel consumed to design, manufacture and run an electric vehicle including batteries and charging vs the same analysis for gasoline powered vehicles including end of life recycle-ability.

Equation would need to include cost to install and maintain charging infrastructure across the country vs gas stations and time lost waiting for charging.

Tom
CAUTION - my posts are based on my experiences, yours may be different.

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09-01-2017 12:45 AM  78 days agoPost 6
MattJen

rrElite Veteran

UK

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I often wonder what will happen to all these batteries in electric cars in 20 yrs time, we will have land fill sites full of them even more toxic than what we have now.

All The Best

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09-01-2017 12:58 AM  78 days agoPost 7
Pistol Pete

rrProfessor

Seffner, FL

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Lithium Ion contains no hazardous materials nor are toxic to the environment.

Google Lithium Ion MSDS

"Material Safety Data Sheet"

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...xwUnbLgBwBi0SzA

There you go
Line item 11 and 12

I randomly picked one of many.

~~Enjoying the hobby one flight at a time~~

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09-01-2017 01:33 AM  78 days agoPost 8
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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And under their legal disclaimers:

The information, content and material contained on this website, including text, images, and links, are PROVIDED BY IDEAL INDUSTRIES, INC. ON AN "AS IS" BASIS, SOLELY AS A CONVENIENCE TO ITS DISTRIBUTORS AND CUSTOMERS WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AS TO THE INFORMATION, CONTENT, MATERIALS, OR PRODUCTS. THEREFORE, YOU AGREE THAT ALL ACCESS AND USE OF THIS WEBSITE AND ITS CONTENT IS AT YOUR OWN RISK.

So, there......

They can say or claim anything they damn well please...whether true or false.....

Logo 600SXs, 800XX, TDR IIs

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09-01-2017 02:04 PM  77 days agoPost 9
RM3

rrElite Veteran

Killeen, Texas - USA

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Lithium Ion contains no hazardous materials nor are toxic to the environment.
sorry Pete but the processing and extraction or mining of these rare earths lead to serious pollution as they use "older" technology to provide the power to process such high tech materials, not to mention all the toxic byproducts and other toxic supporting processes for all this "clean" tech.

As it currently stands... that "all electric Nissan Leaf" is still powered by coal, natural gas and other fossil sources majority of the time as it has to get is power from the grid.

it would seem going "green" is not so environmentally friendly at first after all. Its not until we stop using fossil fuels as the beginning for everything such as source of power, source of most plastics, will be see greater advancements when it comes to electrical gadgetry.

showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...

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09-01-2017 02:47 PM  77 days agoPost 10
Heli_Splatter

rrElite Veteran

USA

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Not hazardous "when disposed of correctly". That is a big if. I am not so sure that a lot of people don't just throw the stuff into the trash stream.

It should be noted that the date on the document is 2004. Things and times change.

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09-01-2017 03:03 PM  77 days agoPost 11
jharkin

rrApprentice

Holliston, MA - USA

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Pete is right that Lithium is not toxic in disposal.

It also can, and more and more WILL be recycled, rather than dumping in landfills. lead acid car batteries are already 99+% recycled... the same rates can be achieved for LiIon if society has the willpower.

(Which is part of a larger issue that the world in general is running out of landfill space and we really need to get MASSIVELY better at recycling. )

It is true that mining lithium is not the cleanest work... but coal mining and tar sands extraction is even worse. And that stacks with the carbon footprint and other toxic pollution of burning those fuels.
(Go watch the documentary "From the Ashes" to understand the damage coal does)

Yes, the end to end benefits of electric power are dubious when its charged from coal and the batteries are trashed. But as more and more renewable generation comes on line, we develop supercharger stations, battery swaps and recycling rates improves it will eventually become as or more convenient than gas is today.

I love gas power too, but we have to get off its soon if we want our kids and grandparents to inherit a livable planet. There is no alternative.

-Jeremy
Whiplash-G
Helix 700G
T-Rex 450 fbl conversion
alot of planks

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09-01-2017 03:42 PM  77 days agoPost 12
wjvail

rrKey Veteran

Meridian,​Mississippi

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I recently read an article that discussed the carbon foot print of various types of transportation. Interesting... but I was left wondering who falls for this BS. It concluded the electric cars and bicycles were at the top of the list because they had zero emissions. Well. Maybe - but that falls far short of telling the whole story.

At the conclusion of the article they said there were serious gains to be made in carbon emissions because transportation in America was the second leading contributor to carbon output. Want to guess what is number one? Electricity!

This isn't the article read but it was along these lines (I can't find the exact article I saw a few days ago). http://www.beagleybrown.com/planes-...s-of-transport/

"Well, Nothing bad can happen now."

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09-01-2017 04:28 PM  77 days agoPost 13
mike123

rrNovice

Brandon MS

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I have often wondered about the full life cycle of energy/fuel consumed to design, manufacture and run an electric vehicle including batteries and charging vs the same analysis for gasoline powered vehicles including end of life recycle-ability.
Equation would need to include cost to install and maintain charging infrastructure across the country vs gas stations and time lost waiting for charging.

I have the same question every time I see some new GREEN something My big one is solar how much energy does it take to manufacture the components verse lifetime output and then as pointed out the end of life problems (recyclability).

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09-01-2017 05:01 PM  77 days agoPost 14
Pistol Pete

rrProfessor

Seffner, FL

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RM3

The same can be said of anything else "being" manufactured, processed or refined but my reply was to the disposal of "the" battery, the end product and what MattJen commented on.

We could just go back to wood, metal, glass and hemp products, but we both know that is certaintly not happening in our lifetime.

Sure, "some" may be willing to go back to wooden blades, frames and no gyros but you still need those damned "electronics" to fly them remotely

As the saying goes, "Cant win for losing".

~~Enjoying the hobby one flight at a time~~

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09-01-2017 05:07 PM  77 days agoPost 15
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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"I love gas power too, but we have to get off its soon if we want our kids and grandparents to inherit a livable planet."

They'll be just fine.....unless these scammers impose needless regulations that stifle our economy so that can't get decent jobs....

Keep in mind that "green is a scheme"....just ask Al Gore....

Logo 600SXs, 800XX, TDR IIs

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09-01-2017 05:09 PM  77 days agoPost 16
GyroFreak

rrProfessor

Orlando Florida​...28N 81W

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Hopefully controlled fusion power will someday be available as clean power. It is 20 years off, but it has always been 20 years off since the 1950's.

I think about the hereafter. I go somewhere to get something, then wonder what I'm here after ?

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09-01-2017 05:40 PM  77 days agoPost 17
oldfart

rrProfessor

Vancouver, Canada

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At the conclusion of the article they said there were serious gains to be made in carbon emissions because transportation in America was the second leading contributor to carbon output. Want to guess what is number one? Electricity!
A number of things have to be considered when reading this statement.

1 - Electricity is number one because the electric power is consumed by all consumers in many different ways on any electric grid (residential heating and cooling, commercial building heating cooling and neon lighting, manufacturing (including fuel and electric powered vehicles) and resource processing are all users of this electricity. Consequently the consumption of this energy will be far greater then for energy consumed for just transportation.

2 - How your electricity is produced is the biggest factor in how much carbon emissions are generated. If it is done with hydro, thermal, solar, wind, tide etc. then the carbon footprint would be almost negligible per gigawatt hour compared to if it is generated by coal, natural gas or other such fuels. So maybe in countries/states where most of the electricity is hydro generated, the carbon footprint of generating electricity would not be the #1 culprit. Probably far from it.

For example, in our Canadian province (like a state in the USA), there are 2.2 million vehicles insured by our insurance companys. The highest consuming electric car per mile is the Tesla, so I used its' consumption to calculate how much extra power, from our provincial grid it would take each year if all 2.2million were Teslas.

Using the average annual mileage our leasing industry uses when calculating a lease (15000kmy/9375miy)and usinng the rate of power consumption that Motor Trend calculated on their Tesla S, I calculated the energy that would be required to operate it for 15000 km, multiplied that by 2.2 million and looked to what that would amount to in total per year.

Then I related that to the annual GWH generated by our HYDRO grid which is now only operating at an 80% capacity. Low and behold, it would take less then 5%, leaving us still with a 15% reserve. Note, 97% of this provinces electrical energy is generated rather cleanly with two major Hydro dams!!!

Phil

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09-01-2017 05:50 PM  77 days agoPost 18
Heli_Splatter

rrElite Veteran

USA

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I am not buying that calculation. Not for a single minute.

I am willing to look at a detailed calculation. There is no way your calculation is correct.

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09-01-2017 05:50 PM  77 days agoPost 19
EEngineer

rrProfessor

TX

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"Note, 97% of this provinces electrical energy is generated rather cleanly with two major Hydro dams!!!"

And your population is how big in comparison with that of the USA?

And the industrial base?

Hydro helps, but is not the end all.

Logo 600SXs, 800XX, TDR IIs

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09-01-2017 05:57 PM  77 days agoPost 20
RM3

rrElite Veteran

Killeen, Texas - USA

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Note, 97% of this provinces electrical energy is generated rather cleanly with two major Hydro dams!!!
I have often wondered why we haven't built more tidal reservoir generators...

some areas see over 50 feet with the average being 2 feet... so why not build a reservoir to channel all this producing power on the way in... then as it pulls out produce power again...

seems it would be very clean and alot more dependable short term than typical hydro dams that depend on rain upstream long term... granted it does not produce the power of a high dam much less a fission generation setup.

http://www.alternative-energy-tutor...al-barrage.html

I think fusion will eventually come about... but the oil billionaires aint gonna let that happen until there is no more oil to sell. the tech is proven, but very finicky and pricey to get right... the infrastructure alone to keep such a plant up and running resembles NASA operations.

showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...

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