RunRyder RC
 4  Topic Subscribe
WATCH
 2 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2     NEXT    >> ] 442 views POST REPLY
ProModeler Scorpion Power
Helicopter
e-
Align
T-REX 500 › Higher KV Compensation
06-09-2017 01:33 AM  70 days agoPost 1
Raptor Freak

Senior Heliman

Auburn, Wa

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I have an 1800kv motor running 13T pinion and 162T Main Gear. I know the Trex is suppost to have the 1600kv motor giving it around 2650 head speed, but the 1800kv motor is going to push it up another 300 rpm or so putting it at 3178 and i believe that is way too fast for this head and the Align 425mm blades. Can i compensate using a lower throttle curve? Normal 0-40-60-70-80 and idle up 85-83-50-83-85 ?? any thoughts??

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-09-2017 02:12 AM  70 days agoPost 2
learnedthehrdwy

Heliman

Saginaw, MI

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

At that gear ratio and kv you'd get roughly 3200 at the beginning of the flight and 2900 at the end at 100% throttle not counting drag ect.

1800kv will up it to 3600ish which realistically will probably be around 3400, so 75% throttle will put you somewhere around 2600rpm. Maybe start at 70% and go from there.

All very rough estimates of course but those calculations have always​ been pretty close according to the tach app on my phone. Although I use all flat curves and gov store mode on YGE esc's.

Highly recommend using a governor. Can get a YEP esc and pg card very cheap. Gov store mode is easy to setup and once it is you just put in whatever flat throttle curve you want for each flight mode and go. Like it better than govs that lock you into 3 headspeeds that you have to reprogram to change.

Sometimes I want to go fast, sometimes slow, or need more headspeed on a windy day, ect. Like being able to throw whatever curve I feel like at the time in and go but still have the benefits of a gov.

They also have active freewheeling that allows you to run low throttle curves without worrying about overheating.

MSH P380/Lynx'd Mini Protos×3/Chase 360/Trex 450/180cfx/230s/SK540's,YGE,MKS,KST, Xnova,Scorpion,Switch,RJX/UMX Pitts/Valiant 1.3/RochobbyMX

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-09-2017 03:46 PM  70 days agoPost 3
Raptor Freak

Senior Heliman

Auburn, Wa

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Thanks for that information. I will look into that governor. Was also looking at going down to an 11 tooth pinion.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-09-2017 04:22 PM  70 days agoPost 4
learnedthehrdwy

Heliman

Saginaw, MI

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

That's a good idea although even without AFW I wouldn't be afraid to run 70% throttle or so. Even if you over temp a esc they usually slow down and not cut out but it depends on the esc. A slowdown at the wrong moment can put you in the dirt.

Think you'll be okay though. Gov is nice but not having to buy anything is nicer especially if what you have works fine for you. YEP's are cheap though and work well plus always been reliable. Very quick/east to program as well with the $7 pg card.

MSH P380/Lynx'd Mini Protos×3/Chase 360/Trex 450/180cfx/230s/SK540's,YGE,MKS,KST, Xnova,Scorpion,Switch,RJX/UMX Pitts/Valiant 1.3/RochobbyMX

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-10-2017 04:25 AM  69 days agoPost 5
Heli Fanatix

Veteran

Fountain Valley, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

this is your option:

#1
- drop your pinion to 11T or 12T

#2
- replace your ESC with a YGE type ESC
- run on GOV Store
- set learning voltage @ 3.8v

Throttle 60%: 2368
Throttle 65%: 2442
Throttle 70%: 2516
Throttle 75%: 2590 <-- Ideal HS
Throttle 80%: 2664
Throttle 85%: 2738
Throttle 90%: 2812
Throttle 95%: 2886

The freewheeling feature will allow multiple HS
you ESC will be happy around 75%
ESC is small enough to fit under your battery tray
You will get a consistant HS throughout your flight
Your tail will hold better

#3
- replace your motor with the lower kv

#4
- perhaps get some 5S pack

but in any case ...you still need a good ESC with GOV. I have some good ESC and walk you through if you need any

Hope this helps

- Scott

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-10-2017 05:34 AM  69 days agoPost 6
learnedthehrdwy

Heliman

Saginaw, MI

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Wouldn't say you absolutely need a esc with a gov. Definitely nice but people have done just fine with flat or v curves for years.

Also use 4v per cell for gov store setup as that's what everything I've seen said to use but 3.8 or whatever is close enough. If you do get one there are a few YouTube videos that explain how to set it up with the pg card.

If your current esc works then it will continue to. Seen people run throttle curves as low as 40% without active freewheeling and not have any issues. 80-100% is more ideal but if it's not getting really hot when you're running a lower curve then it'll be fine.

MSH P380/Lynx'd Mini Protos×3/Chase 360/Trex 450/180cfx/230s/SK540's,YGE,MKS,KST, Xnova,Scorpion,Switch,RJX/UMX Pitts/Valiant 1.3/RochobbyMX

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-10-2017 05:43 PM  69 days agoPost 7
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I wouldn't go lower than a 12t simply because you are more likely to strip the main gear in flight. Also definitely up your mid point in idle up, 50 to 83 is too much of a jump and that will definitely strip gears with a small pinion and your tail will be kicking about all over the place!

12t pinion and something like 90-87-85-87-90 will do nicely. You can just run the 13t at that but you will loose flight time.

60% of the time, it works every time!

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-11-2017 03:50 AM  68 days agoPost 8
Heli Fanatix

Veteran

Fountain Valley, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Flying at 40% with none freewheeling?!? Those that are knowledgeable can see that is a shutdowning waiting to happen. Are you just doing laps? No further comment on that matter

Of course you can do what ever you want and it will seem to "work".

- What is your type of flying?
- What temps are your equipment coming down?
- It's a small investment for the enjoyment of the hobby.... so why not do it anyways?!

Tell me one person that used a GOV that went back to V Curve or flat curve?

But if you do it right than you have nothing to worry about

- Scott

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-11-2017 09:03 AM  68 days agoPost 9
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

.Tell me one person that used a GOV that went back to V Curve or flat curve?
Me!

60% of the time, it works every time!

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-11-2017 01:21 PM  68 days agoPost 10
learnedthehrdwy

Heliman

Saginaw, MI

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

HW 50a v3 doesn't have AFW and can handle it all day without getting beyond luke warm. Been running 50% flat in IU1 on my Chase for about a year now plus there's countless people doing the same with the v3 and other esc's on that other heli forum.

I do agree with you though, buy a 60a YEP for $30 plus a $7pg card and run whatever curve you want without a second thought.

I just don't like telling someone they "have" or "need" to buy something when they don't.

Certain I've seen more ppl running low curves without AFW than with it. 80% rule is for peak efficiency, not certain death if you go below. Especially 70-75% the OP would need to run which is still in the safe zone by my standards.

Never had a over temp issue even with old school esc's. Weak bec's are the only thing in the dept. that's bit me in the arse...lol

MSH P380/Lynx'd Mini Protos×3/Chase 360/Trex 450/180cfx/230s/SK540's,YGE,MKS,KST, Xnova,Scorpion,Switch,RJX/UMX Pitts/Valiant 1.3/RochobbyMX

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-11-2017 06:07 PM  68 days agoPost 11
Heli Fanatix

Veteran

Fountain Valley, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

That is why I mentioned "YGE Type"

The reason I suggested an ESC with a good GOV is that is comes with a robust BEC as a bonus!

My suggestion respectively:
- Kontronik
- YGE
- Hobby Wing

again ... if you are doing easy laps and learning, anything will work. However if you are doing Hard 3D with huge spikes, your setup better be done right.

This is what keeps your heli in the air. although everything seems to work, but sometimes we are on the edge of what it's designed to do when we start doing things that the component was not design for. Doing so.. We could be on "BORROWED TIME".

Some might not like people tell people what to do but is it any better to give "MISINFORMATION"

Example

Let's say the newbie setup his bird and flies around @ 40%-50% Throttle Curve (TC)
- works for some time b/c he is learning
- taking things easy
- great long flight times
- than he progresses
- things are still good
- than the newbie starts to get into 3D
- while learning flips, rolls & Tic Toc
- not easy on collective & inputs
- tail isn't holding
- ESC gets hot (takes it toll over time & a sign of inefficiency)
- ESC may shut down

Now the thought process would be:
"....hmm, it was work fine for some time, what could of happen?"

Problem:
"because it wasn't setup right".

if any of this doesn't make sense, just follow the manufacturer recommended setup for:
- motor kv
- gearing
- esc
- HS guidelines
- TC guidelines

* use what you got provided its with what its intended and you will be good to go. Once you know the basics, you can start tweaking things once you understand how things work. Understand comes with PATIENT and the CORRECT INFORMATION

- Scott

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-12-2017 02:33 PM  67 days agoPost 12
learnedthehrdwy

Heliman

Saginaw, MI

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Dated info that no longer applies is misinformation just the same. Today's esc's don't use diodes to dissipate heat/power like the old ones. They use switching ubec's which are much more efficient so they can easily tolerate things that used to be a problem. Why many good quality esc's don't have AFW, they don't need it.

Been proven time and time by pilots of all skill levels. I only do basic 3d but fly with the collective stick pinned 3/4+ of the way up and find that puts plenty of strain on things. Will kill a Blade micro in under a month lol, they just can't handle it.

Still not smack but there's a bunch of Oxy team/test pilots doing it without issue and most ppl can't even keep up watching their flights, let alone actually fly like them.

Guarantee you'll have more issues with poor gearing or a undersized esc for your setup than you will from running a low throttle curve with a modern esc. Pretty much common knowledge on HF these days.

Of course it's better to be safe than sorry so I gear all my helis so they run at 75% thro or above. Chase I got used and hate working on it so left the gearing as is. Been over a year running 50% in IU1 so I'm not worried about it whatsoever but do fly in IU2-3 more often than one.

Bottom line is people that fly hard enough for it to be a concern already know how to gear things properly. Pretty safe to tell anyone that's asking that they can run it low since you can practically guarantee they're flying simple 8's and circuits.Low throttle curves are usually for gentle low headspeed flights so there's obviously no no large spikes anyways.

They'll be fine running 70-75% even with a dinosaur esc. Barely below the 80% rule anyway so doubt they'll even get a markable change in esc temp.

Things have changed a lot in the past few years so some info has become old wives tales. Like charging at 1c for example. Some can tolerate up to a 15c charge rate and any decent lipo can handle 5c.

I still charge at 2-3c but the Glaciers for my smaller helis actually recommend a minimum charge rate of 2c.

Anyways, I'd recommend he upgrades his esc die to the weak ass Bec the esc's the old Align helis came with. Over temp is merely a slowdown so you have full control and can auto down safely on ones that slow then cut. Others will just slow down so you can still come in and land normally. Brownout from a weak bec and it'll drop out of the sky like a rock.

MSH P380/Lynx'd Mini Protos×3/Chase 360/Trex 450/180cfx/230s/SK540's,YGE,MKS,KST, Xnova,Scorpion,Switch,RJX/UMX Pitts/Valiant 1.3/RochobbyMX

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-12-2017 05:05 PM  67 days agoPost 13
Heli Fanatix

Veteran

Fountain Valley, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

@ learnthehrdwy

You can always JUSTIFY just about anything. Appears you know everything and do live up to your name "learn-the-hard-way"

No comment on your battery charging recommendations. I do the opposite .. charge @ 500mah per pack and get over 800 cycles.

Looks like you fly the small heli's. Once you start flying the big boys...maybe than we can finish this conversation.

Best of luck to the OP.

- Scott

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-12-2017 05:57 PM  67 days agoPost 14
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Learnthehrdwy actually does sound like he knows his stuff, quite refreshing on this site actually.

You can't just say you charge at 500mah, you need to give a C rating or it's meaningless. Charging a 5000mah pack at 500mah would take around 8 hours!

60% of the time, it works every time!

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-12-2017 06:04 PM  67 days agoPost 15
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

What he's basically saying is flying at 50% throttle is fine providing the load is low i.e. hovering or gentle flight.

60% of the time, it works every time!

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-12-2017 08:10 PM  67 days agoPost 16
learnedthehrdwy

Heliman

Saginaw, MI

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Who's the one acting like they know everything?? Lmao
Relax your highness, well aware I still have plenty to learn and learn something new almost everyday from disagreements like this one. Although you haven't​said anything to change my mind on this one yet. Although I don't really disagree anyway since it's always better to be certain and gear things properly and use them by manufacturers recommendations

All I'm saying is in this particular case him running the 75% throttle he'll need to run to be at the headspeed he wants isn't going to be a death sentence. Can practically guarantee he'll be just fine. Do you realize you're raising a big fuss over a measly 5-10% below the 80% rule?!?

Unlike you I'm totally willing to admit I could be wrong but going off the countless people I've seen doing it plus doing it myself, I honestly think he'll be okay.

The same rules apply regardless of whether you're flying a 450 or an 800 so your "big boys" comment is asinine. Actually sold my 500 stretch cause it felt like it moved in slow motion. Like a heli I have to try and keep up with, not wait for it to catch up with me. 450 is the best balance of stability and agility for my taste, so I fly 450's. Sue me for not being or wanting to be a "big heli guy"

Rather be the guy making a 230s squeal for mercy with a dxe than the guy hovering a Goblin 700 with a 24ch Jeti.

Bigger helis are easier to fly than smaller ones btw, so flying a bigger one makes you worse not better if you want to be silly and have a little kiddie pissing match. Believe me, I'm really crushed by your disapproval​.

Bottom line is you don't know unless you try. Had things that didn't add up on paper and ppl said wouldn't work end up working 10× better than expected. Had things that look good on paper end up sucking.

Hope the OP tests it and gives a report on whether it worked or not. Sure it will until he gets time/money or cares to upgrade his esc. Or might work so well he will say "f" a new esc and be happy with what he has. Or it might suck and if so hope he comes back and calls me a dip**** for being wrong.

I try to offer advice that will work with what they already have if possible then recommend buying something after the fact if I think it would be beneficial. Which I did in my first response.

Anyone can say "buy this and it will work" but that wasn't the question he asked.

MSH P380/Lynx'd Mini Protos×3/Chase 360/Trex 450/180cfx/230s/SK540's,YGE,MKS,KST, Xnova,Scorpion,Switch,RJX/UMX Pitts/Valiant 1.3/RochobbyMX

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-12-2017 08:41 PM  67 days agoPost 17
learnedthehrdwy

Heliman

Saginaw, MI

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Not going to comment on your charging comment. I charge at 2C unless the manufacturer states otherwise and it's been a crap shoot on how many cycles I get.

Have some cheap, abused Align lipos that are 4yrs old with countless cycles that still work great and had expensive, babied Thunder Power lipos go to hell in 3 months.

Regardless of brand or how I treated them it's been a per lipo gamble on how long they last. Don't get too wrapped up in that anymore since finding as long as you treat them reasonably well, they'll last as long as they will being babied. Or close enough.

Of course since I fly itty bitty baby helicopters they're cheap enough to abuse and toss if I feel like it.

MSH P380/Lynx'd Mini Protos×3/Chase 360/Trex 450/180cfx/230s/SK540's,YGE,MKS,KST, Xnova,Scorpion,Switch,RJX/UMX Pitts/Valiant 1.3/RochobbyMX

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-12-2017 09:40 PM  67 days agoPost 18
learnedthehrdwy

Heliman

Saginaw, MI

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Anyways, sorry for the bs Raptor.

I do think you'll be okay running the lower curve but your deep v curve does make me a bit nervous since you'll need to have it max out at 75%

I wouldn't want to go below 70% on a old non UBEC esc. Maybe try a shallow v 75-73-70-73-75 or just 75 or 70 flat and play with pitch curves if you get excessive bogging which I'm guessing is the reason you're using the V curve.

On a newer esc i wouldn't be afraid to let it dip down to 60% but if the esc on your 500 is like the one that came with my 450 sport v2 they do leave a lot to be desired.

Although I only had brownout issues with mine and no over temp or other motor/main power issues. It choked on powering the servos after converting to fbl and it only happened when initializing it, not in flight. Still was more than enough warning to upgrade.

MSH P380/Lynx'd Mini Protos×3/Chase 360/Trex 450/180cfx/230s/SK540's,YGE,MKS,KST, Xnova,Scorpion,Switch,RJX/UMX Pitts/Valiant 1.3/RochobbyMX

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-14-2017 04:54 AM  65 days agoPost 19
Heli Fanatix

Veteran

Fountain Valley, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

charging 5000mah pack from 20% to 95% @ 500mah
- takes roughly 4-5 hrs
- will easily balance 6 packs on parallel board
- pulls 3Amps
- easy on the charger & power supply

I usually plug all my packs on the parallel board after flying
- they can be all over the place
- I like to Auto, sport, 3D and circuits
- 20%
- 32%
- 48%
- 22%
- 28%

I make sure they cool down to roughly 75 degrees
- let them equalize for 20 minutes
- bring them to 70%
- this may take 3.5-4hrs
- while this happens, I do maintenance & work on the my fleet

when i'm ready to fly
- takes 2 hrs to bring to pack to 4.15

Patience is part of the hobby and also being OK with not being OK. So OK.

- Scott

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
06-14-2017 07:41 AM  65 days agoPost 20
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

But all the equipment and batteries are designed to charge way faster than that safely with no detrimental effects!

Babying batteries to such a degree does not guarantee their longevity.

There is no need to let them cool for 20 minutes if you are charging at such a slow rate.

Don't you want your money's worth?!

60% of the time, it works every time!

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR
WATCH
 2 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2     NEXT    >> ] 442 views POST REPLY
ProModeler Scorpion Power
Helicopter
e-
Align
T-REX 500 › Higher KV Compensation
 Print TOPIC  Make Suggestion 

 4  Topic Subscribe

Friday, August 18 - 10:56 pm - Copyright © 2000-2017 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online