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HelicopterMain Discussion › FAA overturned on Registration
05-23-2017 02:13 PM  33 days agoPost 81
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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It's real simple so let's keep it that way; no one was following the FAA rules. I've been to enough events to know that it's not happening. Modeling hasn't changed in the last 30 years in terms of where we fly and how we fly. For the most part we've been very safe and fly in controlled airspace. What has changed?

Proliferation of stabilized multirotors. That's the part that changed. It wasn't modeling. Our hobby has stayed very stable over a long period of time. We don't snoop on our neighbor, we don't over fly private property, we fly models at air fields that are supervised by clubs. The AMA was the foundation for this safety with the AMA Safety Code that is supposed to apply whether we are at events of flying at a private venue.

Keep the discussion civil. There is no need to go ape**** to our fellow modelers on this thread.

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05-23-2017 03:22 PM  33 days agoPost 82
Heli_Splatter

Elite Veteran

Silver Spring, MD by way of Sidney, Ne - USA

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Is this an example of keeping it civil? "The Drone weenies are going nuts because FAA lost. Here's an example:"

The guy made a thoughtful presentation. Just because you disagree you called him a "Drone Weenie". Then Conbons said that they are "Retarded".

We need rules and regulations, not AMA quide-lines that do not apply to the vast majority of people because they are not members of AMA and do not fly at AMA fields.

So then, here is the solution: let's write rules for everyone else and leave us alone. The logic is missing and the name calling is not helpful.

BTW.. I fly Planes, Helicopters, Gliders and Multi-rotors. I consider the multi-rotors that I build and fly to be much more technology intense than all the other facets of RC flight. However, I enjoy them all.

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05-23-2017 04:02 PM  33 days agoPost 83
Danny Calderone

Key Veteran

South Jersey

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I feel that if something has a camera mounted on it, or can be flown beyond line of site via FPV or GPS guidance it needs to be subject to much more scrutiny. Leave the traditional helicopter and airplane guys alone. I don't exactly have a solid answer of how to accomplish that. I loath the thought of government involvement in any aspect of the hobby, and I think that regionally there is too many differences to blanket rules across the country. The guy that wants to fly FPV in Montana shouldn't be as restricted as the guy in Philadelphia. It should be tailored within each individual town by ordinance according to landscape and population (in my opinion). The AMA and FAA are equally worthless to enforce anything. I only pay my money so I can attend events if I feel like it. I fly on my own property.

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05-23-2017 05:01 PM  33 days agoPost 84
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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Is this an example of keeping it civil? "The Drone weenies are going nuts because FAA lost. Here's an example:"
The guy made a thoughtful presentation. Just because you disagree you called him a "Drone Weenie". Then Conbons said that they are "Retarded".
We need rules and regulations, not AMA quide-lines that do not apply to the vast majority of people because they are not members of AMA and do not fly at AMA fields.
So then, here is the solution: let's write rules for everyone else and leave us alone. The logic is missing and the name calling is not helpful.
BTW.. I fly Planes, Helicopters, Gliders and Multi-rotors. I consider the multi-rotors that I build and fly to be much more technology intense than all the other facets of RC flight. However, I enjoy them all.
Yes it is and I never called them retarded. I consider his presentation biased and the only reason the Drone Weenies want to include modelers in the mix is because for some reason they think there is parity between the two groups and there isn't but thats my opinion. I don't think there is any parity or equality between the users of multirotors and traditional modelers. The FAA clearly doesnt understand the difference and they haven't been willing to even hear the explanation.

Why do we need more rules and regulations? Were we having issues pre-DJI? I don't recall modelers being accused of overflying peoples property, snooping on people in their backyards or endangering folks by flying over them at sporting events. I don't remember modelers flying in close proximity to aircraft and airports. Who did do that? The Drone Weenies. These folks that fly stabilized multirotors created this problem and it's not my or the AMA's responsibility to rectify it.

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05-23-2017 05:07 PM  33 days agoPost 85
don s

Key Veteran

Chesapeake, VA

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E820, Raptor G4N, X50F/E, E620, Forza 450, and some planks.

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05-23-2017 06:47 PM  33 days agoPost 86
EEngineer

Elite Veteran

TX

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"crop circles "

Can you make a "smily face"?....Or maybe "Kilroy was here"?.....

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05-23-2017 06:53 PM  33 days agoPost 87
EEngineer

Elite Veteran

TX

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"The Drone Weenies"

I'm gonna cut some of them some slack....

I know a few house inspection people that use drones to provide a second opinion for the extent of hail damage to people's roofs.

There's a lot of "shady" roof repair people here that are ripping people off big time...and when the neighbors find out about the drones....well, they want an "overflight", too.....to "snoop" on their damaged roofs....

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05-24-2017 02:29 AM  32 days agoPost 88
conbones

Heliman

panama city beach FL

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i stand by my retarded comment.

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05-24-2017 02:37 AM  32 days agoPost 89
Chris Bergen

Elite Veteran

cassopolis, MI USA

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Actually Terry, there WERE those concerns before multirotors.

As we were manufacturing helicopters that could be used for both hobby and Industrial applications, we heard those questions many years before "drones" became available....

The FAA had been looking at AP and other uses of RC aircraft back in 2001, having called us to ask how our customers were using these aircraft, questioning safety guidelines, operating procedures, etc...

But you go ahead and keep blaming them, it's good entertainment!

Chris D. Bergen

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05-24-2017 02:53 AM  32 days agoPost 90
conbones

Heliman

panama city beach FL

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all you regulation happy tards should be run out on a rale. i am so tired of you types of people there has to be a country you can move to and ruin besides this one.

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05-24-2017 03:18 AM  32 days agoPost 91
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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Chris, did we grow up in a vacuum? How long have we known each other? I'm well aware of the AP machines you and Larry built. I flew some of them for camera work. Question then; does a Bergen Observer fly itself like a Phantom or Inspire? Does it fly without a competent pilot? Can an idiot fly it?

Where any of the FlyingCAM machines stabilized?

The point is that your machines and others back in the day needed pilot skills that Phantom drivers don't need.

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05-24-2017 11:32 AM  32 days agoPost 92
rpat

Elite Veteran

Weirton, W. Va.

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No matter how you think about this the FPV, GPS, fly a mile away from you not even in LOS caused this mess. The day I opened the AMA mag and saw the president with a drone in his hand praising the virtues of the drones I knew we were in for a fight......and sure enough here we are.
The AMA has no doubt did us many favors over the years, the one example is the frequency wars of a few years ago before 2.4 flying BUT this episode they did not do us any favors. I stil think they received some back door payola from the drone industry.......BUT that is just my thinking.

trex 700fbl cal30,minititan,, trx600fbl,trex250,logo 500,Velocity N2

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05-24-2017 12:34 PM  32 days agoPost 93
Heli_Splatter

Elite Veteran

Silver Spring, MD by way of Sidney, Ne - USA

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Blaming the drone users as a whole is illogical. The remote control equipment improved to the point that it was actually useful. Several miscreants proved that RC equipment could be used in negative ways.

Without laws and regulations on the books, it is impossible to charge someone for stupid acts. What is acceptable and what is not? Criminal acts are not criminal without laws.

What are you scared of? You say you fly within AMA guidelines. Why are you opposed to making regulations based on that starting point. I just don't get you guys. There are many multi-rotor operators that have never been a problem.

When there are sales of five million of these devices, you need some rules on their use. It is that simple.

The old days are gone and the curmudgeons will soon be gone. Technology is in and flying by the seat of your pants is out.

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05-24-2017 12:40 PM  32 days agoPost 94
conbones

Heliman

panama city beach FL

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we already have laws. use existing quit trying make new laws good grief people you cant keep up with the laws you already have OR YOU WOULD KNOW YOU DONT NEED NEW ONES!

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05-24-2017 03:55 PM  32 days agoPost 95
EEngineer

Elite Veteran

TX

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"Criminal acts are not criminal without laws."

That statement sounds similar to those made in places in Europe during the 1930s.

I know you mean well, but you might have tried to make your point another way....

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05-24-2017 06:43 PM  32 days agoPost 96
1helimech

Senior Heliman

Pensacola, Fla....

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I like conbones idea, KISS:keep it simple stupid...more is NOT better in most cases more is just plane (spelling intended) , stupid ..use the laws that are in place... just say'n...

Good Day

I dream of a better world, A world where a chicken's crossing a road IS NOT questioned

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05-24-2017 09:44 PM  32 days agoPost 97
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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There are already plenty of laws to protect society against idiots and criminals. Invasion of privacy, property damage, etc. Where do some of you get off thinking that more laws are required ?

As for the $5 - - - that's just to cover the cost of record keeping. Reminds me of one state's effort to record all gun purchases. In the end the state concluded that the records being kept gave NO improvement in gun violence.

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05-25-2017 02:58 AM  31 days agoPost 98
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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Blaming the drone users as a whole is illogical. The remote control equipment improved to the point that it was actually useful. Several miscreants proved that RC equipment could be used in negative ways.
Without laws and regulations on the books, it is impossible to charge someone for stupid acts. What is acceptable and what is not? Criminal acts are not criminal without laws.
What are you scared of? You say you fly within AMA guidelines. Why are you opposed to making regulations based on that starting point. I just don't get you guys. There are many multi-rotor operators that have never been a problem.
When there are sales of five million of these devices, you need some rules on their use. It is that simple.
The old days are gone and the curmudgeons will soon be gone. Technology is in and flying by the seat of your pants is out.
First of all, I would agree with you; if you were right but you're not. I never blamed the drone weenies, I've always said that the drone companies introduced technology that we helped them perfect and they sold en masse to an unsuspecting public without adequate controls in place to educate the users and control the implementation and proliferation thereof. Modeling is self controlling; if you can't learn to fly you crash, give up and go do something else. Stabilized multirotors can be flown by anyone and honestly "flown" is a huge stretch because that's not what the user does. There is no real flying involved. It's more like steering really.

Which brings me to your second point, regarding rules and regs. Speaking for myself I don't want or need anymore rules and regs. AirwolfRC is perfectly correct, there are enough already. Having said that, who needs the rules and regs? The Drone Weenies do, not me. Like thousands of my fellow AMA members I fly VLOS, in controlled airspace and have a track record of not being a hazard to my fellow man or his property so why would the FAA lump AMA members into the consumer group of users that fly ready to fly, stabilized multirotors? Here's why; because they have no clue how the hobby works and who works the hobby. Folks that fly VLOS, real models that we have to build, setup and test fly ourselves have no business being lumped into the Drone Weenie Zone but you can't have that conversation with the FAA because they don't give a damn and it would appear that you aren't ready to have that conversation either.

To your third point. If there have been 5 million models sold as you say, why isn't the FAA registering these models at the Point of Sale? As I've said multiple times in the past, if the FAA were truly interested in controlling the airspace, making it safer and determining who the actors both good and bad are, wouldn't they be registering these models when they are sold? According to the FAA they have 750,000 registered users. Is that all? Surely with 5 million sold there has to be more users. I can think of several reasons why they don't want to register at the point of sale; one is that the manufacturers recognize that if that happened their sales numbers would be probably be adversely affected. That's probably a given so that sums up why the manufacturers want to get the AMA modelers involved to lump us in with a bunch of users in the belief that we fly like the Drone Weenies; we don't. Furthermore, the fact that folks would have to register during the purchase would cost the manufacturer and the retailer money and possibly change some folks minds in the process. Continuing on, there has not been a single instance where registration revealed a single transgressor that resulted in any prosecution. In short, registration gives the FAA no teeth to enforce anything. Surely with all of the hype about how the FAA has to control the skies there should have been a bunch of folks that got enforcement letters and prosecutions but there aren't any, why? Why would you advocate lumping VLOS modeling in with the Drone Weenies when we clearly don't fly in anything close to the same environment but according to you we need the same regulations, why is that? If I fly at controlled facilities and airspace, under a set of Safety guidelines that have worked for decades why do I need to have additional rules and regs?

Your fourth point is the most puzzling to me. What old days are you referring to? Look at the number of pilots at fixed wing events all over the US. Do you see Phantoms dominating those events? I don't. What I see are modelers flying the latest tech and doing it by the seat of their pants. What challenge is there to flying a stabilized multirotor around and spying on your neighbor trying to catch the couple down the street hanging out by their pool behind their privacy fence doing whatever couples do when they think no one is watching. Is that the challenge? What kind of challenge is it to just steer something around the sky while 99.97% of the flight workload is offloaded to a GPS satellite. Is that the challenge to be able to verify that it works as designed. I might be old and curmudgeonly but if you think it's challenging to fly that stuff, please enjoy. More power to you but I don't want to be lumped into that pile because even at my age I still like a challenge and I just don't see much of a challenge to something that can take off and land itself with virtually no control intervention by the operator.

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05-25-2017 04:34 AM  31 days agoPost 99
EEngineer

Elite Veteran

TX

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"Technology is in and flying by the seat of your pants is out."

Total BS, Mr. safety officer......

Kyle Dahl, Nick Maxwell, Jamie Robertson and other up and coming heli pilots are not curmudgeons like you.

Nor are the many young pattern pilots that fly in multitudes of contests.

Etc....etc....etc..

Where on earth do you come up with that nonsense?

Go back to your own flying field and "assert your authority" there.

And afterwards go file suit against James A. Taylor for usurping your perceived "authority".

It's that simple, as you put it....

Sorry if I was too harsh, but that beltway attitude is bogus.

Are you an FAA shill, or something...because that's what you sound like.

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05-25-2017 06:01 AM  31 days agoPost 100
Danny Calderone

Key Veteran

South Jersey

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As strange as it sounds to use this word in 2017.... sometimes segregation is the answer. Things no matter how alike in some ways are just too different to coexist in the same place. Just because helicopters and multi's all have transmitters doesn't mean we should be bunched into the same group...by rules, or by forum for that matter. I propose a DroneRyder site where they can enjoy all the rules and regulations they ask for. Let the curmudgeons here be among our own kind.

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