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› Correct way to connect all these electronics...?
01-26-2017 06:38 AM  9 months agoPost 1
Dingo07

rrApprentice

Newport Coast, CA -​USA

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Well I've been at it for more than I'm willing to admit. After reading the manuals for each device, reading through several forums and tons of posts, the picture I put together is how I believe it should go. Let me know if this is correct.

What I want to achieve is this:
1- use the Futaba switch to turn on and off the electronics in order to avoid a spool up mishap
2- use the Glacier battery as a backup pack via the PRO GUARD+

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01-26-2017 12:19 PM  9 months agoPost 2
JuanRodriguez

rrProfessor

The Villages,​Florida

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Where is your main battery ??

Been there, done that and old enough to know better.....

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01-26-2017 01:13 PM  9 months agoPost 3
wrongler

rrProfessor

Brewerton, New York

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I think the main lipo is probably plugged into ESC.

Bill Whittaker

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01-28-2017 12:59 AM  9 months agoPost 4
Dingo07

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Newport Coast, CA -​USA

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65 views and not one of you knows if this is correct? Don't you all build and fly these electric things!?!

@JuanRodriguez - yes the main flight pack lipos are not part of the drawing because they are "a given", meaning we all know where they get connected...

The JIVE PRO 120+ HV has a built in BEC that is set at 7.4V

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01-28-2017 03:51 AM  9 months agoPost 5
iyoy

rrVeteran

Bacolod City,​Philippines

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We are all confused

That is what makes our hobby fun. There's one way to find out...go give it a shot!

iyoy

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01-28-2017 06:15 AM  9 months agoPost 6
balsabasher

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Central Ohio, USA

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Well I can tell you one thing is wrong. You need to hook to the female end of the switch and not the male end on the right end of the on/off switch. The male end is the charge port and is only connected to the female end in the "off" position.

Blades; what goes around, comes around!

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01-28-2017 07:12 AM  9 months agoPost 7
Dingo07

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Newport Coast, CA -​USA

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Thanks balsabasher! I don't have the switch in hand yet and just took the pic off the internet.

iyoy - really? I thought every Flybarless electric heli has a BEC, receiver, FBL controller, servos and batteries...

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01-28-2017 07:53 AM  9 months agoPost 8
iyoy

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Bacolod City,​Philippines

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Still confused

There are so many ways to do it, that's why!

iyoy

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01-28-2017 08:04 AM  9 months agoPost 9
Heli Fanatix

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Fountain Valley, CA

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"65 views and none of you know if this is correct?"
... wow

- Scott

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01-28-2017 01:16 PM  9 months agoPost 10
JuanRodriguez

rrProfessor

The Villages,​Florida

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I thought every Flybarless electric heli has a BEC
Not really.... some use just the ESC with built in BEC

Been there, done that and old enough to know better.....

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01-28-2017 01:49 PM  9 months agoPost 11
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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Here's how my setups are wired:
Futaba CGY-750 = FBL
Futaba R7008SB receiver = RX
Kosmik Master --> FBL throttle output port
Kosmik Slave --> RX

RX S.Bus output --> FBL S.Bus input

500mAh 2s LiFe --> Futaba heavy duty switch harness --> RX

  

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01-28-2017 05:00 PM  9 months agoPost 12
rcflyerheli

rrKey Veteran

Granbury, TX USA

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I looked at your diagram when you first posted, and felt that I couldn't contribute, as I don't run anything you have listed. After reviewing this thread again, something does pop out.

Not being familiar with the Xbus setup, just what is powering your Spirit? It appears that you have either no or at the most, only one power input to it. The black line that comes off the Spirit will tie to the ground on your Y, and I assume there is a positive power input in the green Xbus line.

If that is so, then you have a single point 5a servo plug powering all 4 of your HD servos. I have never run less than two power inputs into the power bus that my servos plug into, no matter what the type of unit.

Also, I have never used a switch in my system. As I look at your diagram, that switch really doesn't benefit you IMHO, as with the 2s lipo being plugged in if the switch is off, it seems to me the Proguard will be powered from the 2s lipo, which will power the RX and Spirit because it detects low voltage from the ESC. I guess I really don't see what the switch function is for. The switch won't get any power until the ESC is powered, and once that is done the main connection you show will power the system, all the switch will do is turn on the secondary output from the ESC.

One thing I am concerned about is that you are running two power cables from the ESC. One thru the switch, which only turns on/off the slave power from the ESC, and the other connected to the RX through the main. There is a situation that if you accidentally turn off the switch while the ESC is powered, the Power guard will sense low voltage from the ESC and will allow the 2s lipo to now power that part of the system while the main line from the ESC is also powering the other end. I don't believe this would be a good thing.

Hope this helps.

Goblin 700, Trex 700DFC, Gaui X7, Logo 690SX, Logo 600SX; Trex 470 Trex 500
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01-28-2017 05:40 PM  9 months agoPost 13
rcflyerheli

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Granbury, TX USA

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- really? I thought every Flybarless electric heli has a BEC, receiver, FBL controller, servos and batteries...
Actually, that statement is only partially correct. Some ESCs (HV) don't put a BEC into the ESC. The reasoning for this is that you have upwards of 40 volts on one side on the ESC, and the only thing isolating that voltage from your controller (RX/FBL/servos) is built in circuitry inside the ESC.

The units that don't include a BEC have an opto isolation feature that prevents the main power from getting to to your FBL unit. That forces one to wire in an external BEC or a separate regulator or a stand alone 2s lipo power system to get the system powered.

The latter is the way I have always gone on my systems. I run multiple inputs to my Vbars using a 2s, 2200 mah lipo for power.

Goblin 700, Trex 700DFC, Gaui X7, Logo 690SX, Logo 600SX; Trex 470 Trex 500
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01-28-2017 05:54 PM  9 months agoPost 14
Dingo07

rrApprentice

Newport Coast, CA -​USA

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@iyoy - Now you get why I'm here asking for help! How would you do it with these parts?

@helifanatix - I thought you were friendly and a nice guy when I met you in person - if you can't contribute something positive then don't contribute at all, thank you

@Ace Dude - thank you for that info. Based on your input I think I need to run the Slave to the PRO GUARD+ MINUS the switch and then to the Spirit AUX (blue line to Spirit instead of Rx)

@rcflyerheli - Thank you for giving me your input - I greatly appreciate your time and effort! The spirit is being powered via the AUX channel, which I rerouted based on @Ace Dude's post. All colored lines are the standard 3-wire servo wires, including the black one coming off the Y - which is getting removed. I see what you mean about the switch and the PRO GUARD+ , I just don't know how to be able to power the electronics with the buffer pack lipo shown (and switch) without the main flight pack connected - that's the intent.

Thanks guys for the input! Keep it coming!! I'm learning and will update the picture to reflect these changes described.

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01-28-2017 07:17 PM  9 months agoPost 15
rcflyerheli

rrKey Veteran

Granbury, TX USA

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, I just don't know how to be able to power the electronics with the buffer pack lipo shown (and switch) without the main flight pack connected - that's the intent.
What I see is that with the switch off, any time your buffer pack (I'll add more on that in a sec) is plugged in, it will either be active if there is no power to the main input pins or in standby if there is power to the main input.

In the case where you have the ESC power connected, the outputs are in parallel, and one side goes to the RX through the ESC main output. The slave output from the BEC goes to the input of the Proguard and is the reference voltage that it looks at to turn on or off. With your switch turned on, the Proguard sees the same input voltage through the slave as what is coming through the ESC main directly into the RX. Where the problem will arise is if the switch is left off with the aux battery plugged in, it senses below 4.5 v and now routes the lipo power to the RX or to the Spirit, depending on where you connect the Proguard output. Without the switch, all you have to do is plug in the aux pack first, then power the ESC. What I don't know is if the Proguard routes the full 2s lipo voltage to the flight controls, or if it regulates the output to 7.4v, but whether it does or not, what happens is that if the switch is off and the ESC is powered, you will end up with two independent active power sources fighting to power the system, and I don't know if that will affect the ESC. I sense that you are concerned about having the ESC power to the motor without having the RX powered, and this seems to be taking precedence over the simple backup function of the Proguard. That was always a concern of mine also, which is why I chose to go with a separate RX battery instead of an ESC with a BEC built into it. Being human, I have inadvertently tested the system several times by forgetting to plug in the RX pack before connecting the main pack. What I have found is that in the absence of a throttle arming or run signal from the RX. the esc will not send power to the motor, so that is why you can run a BEC enabled ESC and plug in the main flight pack to power both at the same time.

AS far as your lipo, I think you are going way overboard on the pack size. You have three extra components (the proguard, the switch, and the full Xbus RX) from what I have run on my 700 sized helis, and the extra wires associated with them. What I think will happen is you are going to run out of space for convenient electronics setup with that large of a 2s lipo. It is only intended to get you down safely if something happens to the output of the ESC, so my gut feeling is that you only need a small pack (I run all my electronics off a 2s 1300mah pack on my X7 and get two flights off it without any problems). It's voltage will be down to 7.8 after the second flight and then I change it out to a fresh pack.

I know this is another long winded answer, but I hope it helps.

Goblin 700, Trex 700DFC, Gaui X7, Logo 690SX, Logo 600SX; Trex 470 Trex 500
Amain Team Rep

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01-29-2017 04:38 AM  9 months agoPost 16
Dingo07

rrApprentice

Newport Coast, CA -​USA

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I received a response from Kontronic

I sent the picture in an email to Kontronic and here was their response:
Master and Slave plug into the receiver - Master on Throttle and Slave to a free slot. The regulator must be plugged in at BATT. There's no need for the switch in the "Slave" line. (I paraphrased )

OK, so with that said I updated the drawing to reflect those points and the previous discussion above... However, how do I connect the switch in order to turn on and off the electronics when the ESC is not connected to the 12S flight pack? Or do I even need to bother with that??

UPDATED CONNECTION DRAWING

ps. the lipo in the drawing is just one I grabbed easily from the internet, it's not something I have...

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01-29-2017 05:06 AM  9 months agoPost 17
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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I'm not familiar with the Pro Guard+, but from the revised drawing it appears it will always be powered from the battery.

  

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01-29-2017 05:40 AM  9 months agoPost 18
rcflyerheli

rrKey Veteran

Granbury, TX USA

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I agree with Ace Dude. For the Proguard to work, it has to have a voltage on the main side power input so it can monitor it. The way you now show, it is always going to read less than 4.5v, and then apply the backup power from the lipo to the RX which is now also being powered by the ESC output.

I think you should run the slave power to the main side of the Proguard and run the output of the Proguard as an input to the Spirit. Skip the black ground wire and make a Y and plug the tail servo (or any other servo) into one side and plug the output from the Proguard into the other side. That way, you will have two sources for the load bus on the spirit, not just one.

Ace, if you see anything you disagree with, chime in. I would be afraid that only one power source to the spirit would be more than one servo plug can handle safely.

Goblin 700, Trex 700DFC, Gaui X7, Logo 690SX, Logo 600SX; Trex 470 Trex 500
Amain Team Rep

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01-29-2017 06:06 AM  9 months agoPost 19
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

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May I ask how the Proguard contributes to the reliability and performance of this overall set up?

At any rate, and most simply, the master lead off the Jive should go to the throttle port on the receiver. Plug the slave lead off the Jive into the aux port on the Spirit. This splits the power between the receiver and fbl power buses. Plug the buffer pack into the switch harness. Plug the other end of the switch harness into any other spare port on the receiver. This will run the radio without needing to plug in the main packs. Once initially charged, the esc will keep the buffer pack charged. The buffer pack is always there leveling peaks and troughs in BEC output. It does not have to be smart. It's always on duty. If the main packs fail, the buffer pack will bring you home.

If you use a lipo for the buffer, set the bec voltage to to 2 x 3.85v. This makes sure the buffer pack always runs at storage voltage and keeps from degrading the buffer pack over time by having it sit around at a higher voltage. If you want more voltage, fine, but be prepared to maintain the buffer pack accordingly.

Ben Minor

Team Synergy Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
Progressive RC

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01-29-2017 09:19 AM  9 months agoPost 20
Dingo07

rrApprentice

Newport Coast, CA -​USA

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Thank you guys for your input!

This is a 2-part update...

- Part 1 -
rcflyerheli, here's the updated schematic based on your input - I'm not 100% sure about your "Skip the black ground wire and make a Y" comment but here goes! How do I power the RX without having the 12S main flight pack connected to the JIVE? Does it get power from the XBUS wire from the lipo connected to the PRO GUARD+?


.
.
- Part2 -
Dr.Ben, I figured the PRO GUARD+ would be beneficial to the setup because of its feature of being an active voltage monitor. It seems to be a great little product if I can figure out how to connect it! Here's the description from their website:
"The Pro-Guard + actively monitors the main input voltage and when it sees a drop below a safe level, it will immediately switch to use the backup input. If, or when the main input voltage raises back to a safe level, the Pro Guard + will automatically switch back to the main input source. The Pro Guard + has some included features that other units available do not have.
- A built-in 2s lipo battery charger ensures that the backup battery is always charged.
- An external switch to turn the Pro Guard + on/off (by default the units backup battery is always on)."

The "buffer pack" that you talk about is the lipo and PRO GUARD+, with the backup battery being always on based on the description. The charging capabilities of the unit is also what sold me on it, I'd love to be able to use it's capabilities. I think I depicted what you said about how to wire it here. I think it looks good, but I would need to connect the 7.4MAIN to somewhere in order to use the charging capabilities I would think...

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