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HelicopterMain Discussion › Sonic perturbations of a vortex.
01-10-2017 01:10 PM  10 months agoPost 1
heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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A few weeks back I created this

Watch at YouTube

Nothing like it that I can find, though I think the physics that make it happen are already known. They have just yet to be exploited as such.

But there are implications in helicopter tuning, especially the smaller ones.

The short version is that a sound happening to one side of a vortex and not the other causes a back flow feedback that alters the vortex structure.

If you don't get it, or don't agree here is a vortex being inverted with sound

Watch at YouTube

In a Heli that means that any sound coming in to the Heli on one side CAN add to the harmonic profile being expressed by the device itself. So this is a possible source of frustration in those tiny helis that we've all had the experience of working fine in some places and not others.

It is important to note that my above experiments are with enclosed vortices. A free vortex does similar things.

A helicopter operates like a closed vortex in this application because the blades have a fixed diameter.

In case you're still looking for why it matters.
Let's say you have a helicopter hovering with a speaker in front on the left.
The 2 blades are spinning at 3000 rpm
That means that 25 times a second one blade is heading toward the speaker.
So if the speaker were to play a 50hz signal then as each blade came around this would magnify the 50hz vibration the heli already has.

This is an oversimplification at best and I am not proposing it as a solution, just another possible identity of the problem we've all experienced.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?
RC helis, the original fidget spinners

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01-10-2017 02:05 PM  10 months agoPost 2
JuanRodriguez

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The Villages,​Florida

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Can you explain what practical implications all this has to the average heli flyer ??

Been there, done that and old enough to know better.....

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01-10-2017 02:43 PM  10 months agoPost 3
GyroFreak

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Orlando Florida​...28N 81W

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This is an oversimplification
It's called resonance.

I think about the hereafter. I go somewhere to get something, then wonder what I'm here after ?

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01-10-2017 03:29 PM  10 months agoPost 4
heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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Ok but when is the last time someone talked about resonant interference from outside the heli?

Did you know it was possible to control a vortex with sound?

Too long didn't read of it is this.

The way sound spreads on the outside where you choose to fly affects your gyro.

So your venue, and even the temperature and air pressure can contribute to gyro issues by nature of the way a sound bounces and comes back to the bird.

This is another possible avenue for eliminating the voodoo of gyro tuning. Because if you know this, then you know that tuning behind a building or in your back yard or your garage will not guarantee performance in the fields.

Anywhere you hear an echo should be avoided.

I am submitting this as added factor not usually considered. To those of you with data logging, it's easy to demonstrate. Fly near a building and you'll see a new vibe. I know vibes come and go all the time, but knowing what and where and why is how we overcome. So this may help in tracking down the vibes that cause so many headaches.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?
RC helis, the original fidget spinners

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01-10-2017 03:31 PM  10 months agoPost 5
heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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And yes I know that the sound coming off the building is vibrating the whole heli, but the whole heli isn't alternating between retreating and advancing in relation to the sound source.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?
RC helis, the original fidget spinners

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01-10-2017 03:59 PM  10 months agoPost 6
ssmith512

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Indianapolis, IN USA

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So in summary, if I play Pink Floyd's "Learning to Fly" loud enough while flying, the gyro will self tune and my flying will be on par with the factory pilots.

SWEET!!!

Steve

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01-10-2017 08:52 PM  10 months agoPost 7
icanfly

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ontario

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80's 90's movie called Firefly used a cobra with stealth sound canceling techniques to rotor vortice swat.

gyro tuning is not voodoo or unknown science, it's practical machine technology with defined parameters. How the computer is set to manage those parameters is in your control.

Vibes occur because of imbalances and rotor wake collisions, its so beautiful to see a well balanced heli spool up ever so smoothly, pure bliss. worn bearings no matter where they are found on a heli may well vibrate at rpms that induce harmonic resonances, all mechanical.

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01-11-2017 02:59 PM  10 months agoPost 8
heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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Any misunderstood technology is magic.

Not real magic, but magic as defined by your mind. When the universe does something repeatedly that it shouldn't be. The stress and mental inversion experienced when you feel like you understand but do not get the expected results.

You know it's science, you know you are missing something but can't help but throw up your hands.

Like nearly every one of my ideas that people say "so?" About I'm not asking you to venture anything other than your awareness and willingness to observe that the shape of the environment matters. And in a Heli that has a small and instable flight envelope the environmental morphology can reflect the helicopter's own sounds in a manner that focuses what is thought to be widely propagated sound into sharp 3d shapes.

So near a building or hill or wherever you fly with unique features, and you experience trouble it may not be radio or electrical.

And in many frustrating cases we feel those are all ruled out.

Not mine but helpful

Watch at YouTube

Watch at YouTube

Goblin! where have you been all my life?
RC helis, the original fidget spinners

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01-12-2017 12:43 AM  10 months agoPost 9
Gearhead

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Vt

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you could control the world with this stuff

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz

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01-13-2017 03:04 AM  10 months agoPost 10
RappyTappy

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North Denver,​Colorado

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Could use a better term than "perturbations" lol
And yes I know that the sound coming off the building is vibrating the whole heli, but the whole heli isn't alternating between retreating and advancing in relation to the sound source.
Its cause this is the Matrix...

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01-13-2017 12:06 PM  10 months agoPost 11
heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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Resonance is better, but I wasn't sure it was true resonance until later.

A vortex is not a solid object so I was not expecting structural resonance.

But now I've seen free (no container to make them spin ) vortices that are generated by solely by sound passing through an energetic medium, so I know that they do have structural resonance.

This resonant frequency depends on the mass of the available Media and the frequency that originated it.

So in my case I'm vibrating the air above a pool of water heated on a candle warmer. The available warm moist air can be spun into a large vortex, by a loud low frequency but will quickly dissipate as the "fuel" that drives the reaction is quickly used. Now a quiet low frequency will form a large weak vortex. Small powerful ones can be generated with loud high pitched sounds.

So now this.
Tornados are caused by the ground.
They are vortices shed when the weight of an incoming storm presses on an aquifer. If significantly empty the groan (well below 1hz) will shed vortices from the edge of the aquifer. The strongest tornados will ride an edge for some time before shearing off the edge as the storm front leaves the aquifer.

What?
Have a look for yourself.
Follow prevailing winds and all of these paths suddenly make sense. Smaller tornados are caused by smaller aquifers closer to the surface.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?
RC helis, the original fidget spinners

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01-14-2017 03:13 AM  10 months agoPost 12
heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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Everywhere and everyone I take this to.
Crickets...

People keep saying, "well who did you tell?"

I'm telling you.

If I can't make the average person understand and care why this matters then there is no point.

Just look at the maps.

See the relationships between the edges of the aquifers and the vortex paths?

Yeah I know
Another idiot, and the sky is falling.

This company compiled over 50 years of NOAA data into a program that generates a map based on your choices of the data set.

I just happened to be lucky enough to have my idea in a time when this map already exists.

http://uxblog.idvsolutions.com/2012...tracks.html?m=1

Goblin! where have you been all my life?
RC helis, the original fidget spinners

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01-14-2017 02:39 PM  10 months agoPost 13
RM3

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Killeen, Texas - USA

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this is boarder-line off topics stuff...

I get what your saying, but honestly, this has little to no application as far as our flying toys go (yes they are toys).

this may have application for speed helis and other fluid dynamic issues concerning increasing performance of single rotor flight but it really is nit-picking, and your post has literally gone off the reservation IMHO.

but really... whats your point as far as a model helicopter is concerned cause we are not flying models so sensitive to sound waves that performance is affected in any noticeable way for 99% of what and how we tend to fly.

you may want to try posting this in a physics forum... otherwise crickets and rolling eyes will dominate your post.... hell, my guess is that half of the flyers here are happy enough to hover and fly circuits in one direction, they could care less about the rest.

showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...

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01-14-2017 03:01 PM  10 months agoPost 14
JuanRodriguez

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The Villages,​Florida

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I asked basically the same question early on in this thread....
Can you explain what practical implications all this has to the average heli flyer ??
My guess the answer is , "absolutely nothing", but it went unanswered.....

Been there, done that and old enough to know better.....

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01-14-2017 03:40 PM  10 months agoPost 15
Heli_Splatter

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USA

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Having just read and viewed the entire thread, I would say; Very Interesting. Keep it coming. I don't care if it is slightly off topic. Can we focus sound energy to mess with our fellow fliers?

So, do you think that Tornadoes could be brought under control with focused high energy sound waves? That would be awesome.

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01-14-2017 04:16 PM  10 months agoPost 16
heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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I think they could be,
Even considered a large drone tuned so the pwm rate makes the blades hum at tightly controlled frequency.
But more simply we can monitor the larger aquifers for infrasound. Double or triple preparation time.
And look at producing infrasound interference at random intervals.

Random to disrupt the forming vortex without starting other trouble. No reason to hunt them in the sky when we can likely control them from the ground.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?
RC helis, the original fidget spinners

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01-14-2017 04:21 PM  10 months agoPost 17
heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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I explained why it matters to helis.

You guys chose to split hairs instead of accepting the fact that the environment can work against you.

Not all of us fly high end equipment that practically sets itself up. And even the best equipment acts weird.

The application for you.
Is to think about it later.

Next time you're tuning and the heli does something weird and you are starting to get frustrated, ask yourself about the sound echo.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?
RC helis, the original fidget spinners

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01-14-2017 04:26 PM  10 months agoPost 18
heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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Have you ever noticed that around buildings that noises like engines, and mufflers and helis echo off of a building in a way that focuses it and makes it sound suddenly loud, sharp and raspy?

It is the shape of the propagating sounds that does this. And your blades hitting this can get you a sudden resonant interference.

Am I really asking that much of you,
In requesting your consideration?

Goblin! where have you been all my life?
RC helis, the original fidget spinners

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01-14-2017 04:40 PM  10 months agoPost 19
heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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Yes I veered off topic,
But this concept is teaching me something new every day.
So as for the tornado bit.

I'm not just sharing it here. It is in other appropriate places.

But just like here I'm getting a lot of views but little or no interaction.

It doesn't matter if they get it.

It matters that you do.

Instead of just shutting me down, read. I'm not taking it personal. I don't care about sounding smart or making friends.

Our overuse of water is doing this.

When someone says in a hundred years the temperature is gonna be 5 degrees higher who cares.

But if I tell you in the next five years we're gonna see numbers of tornados you won't believe.
That's something we can work with,
Yes?

Goblin! where have you been all my life?
RC helis, the original fidget spinners

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01-14-2017 04:46 PM  10 months agoPost 20
RM3

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Killeen, Texas - USA

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helis echo off of a building in a way that focuses it and makes it sound suddenly loud, sharp and raspy?
thats exactly my point.... if your flying close enough to a building (or other "reflective" large object and a model so loud (likely breaking local club rules) that the model is "affected" (very unlikely IMHO).... the issue to be concerned with is NOT with the supposed sound reflections.... but rather your chosen flight location and lack of model noise control.

of all the issues I have ever had with nanos, micros and 600 - 700 class helis both electric and gasser (the loudest of the bunch), none of the issues that I have experienced were the result of reflected sound waves.
Next time your tuning and the heli does something weird and you are starting to get frustrated, ask yourself about the sound echo
seriously... thats got about as much worth as saying what I had for breakfast yesterday is affecting the helis gyro gain settings today.
My guess the answer is , "absolutely nothing", but it went unanswered.....
my sentiments exactly.

but tell you what... if your so serious about this apparent "connection"... test it with a model heli and publish your results... but coming on here and blabbering about the physics of fluid dynamics in relation of sound and vortex scenarios with no proof what so ever... pointless
But just like here I'm getting a lot of views but little or no interaction.
hate to hurt your feeling there high speed.... but there is probably a good reason for that... just saying.

showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...

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HelicopterMain Discussion › Sonic perturbations of a vortex.
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