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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersEngines › How Bout a head to head test, Hyper21 Vs G22
10-20-2016 04:24 AM  13 months agoPost 1
RM3

rrElite Veteran

Killeen, Texas - USA

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So I managed to separate a Wally Hyper21 from a donated model (THX Vance!).

And was thinking, how good is that little engine?... Im just a novice at modding a 20cc gasser engine. But how does mine compare to a Hyper21?

Any interest in seeing a head to head test between mine and the hyper21?

all I have is the prop test stand and a set of various APC props, 14x4, 14x6, 14x12...etc. So How would I go about producing a video comparing the two?

just the performance or a look inside the engine too?

any interest? ... would this offend anybody? ( saw an old post concerning the Hyp21 and a bunch of pink )

something to do while my heli is still in pieces...

showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...

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10-20-2016 04:36 AM  13 months agoPost 2
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Absolutely!

Would love to see how they compare!! Run them up and see what rpms you get, also you may want to check idle speeds, smoothness and transition.

Would be cool to see!

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4136 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3200 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1430 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 196 flts

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10-20-2016 10:59 AM  13 months agoPost 3
rcnut

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Rockford, Illinois

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I've been wondering if your motor would fit into a 600 class heli, and if so, how would it perform? Like a converted Align or Raptor...

Team Miniature Aircraft
"I love the smell of Nitro in the morning!"
...Citizen 654!

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10-20-2016 02:09 PM  13 months agoPost 4
fastflyer20

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N. Tonawanda, NY

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I test the bigger Zenoah's on a test stand using props for the load and an Eagletree to accurately capture the RPM.

Wally typically used very high exhaust port timing which is not good for lower engine RPM performance. If this is the case with your Hyper21, use a wide variety of props to see how both perform at various RPM's.

Tom
CAUTION - my posts are based on my experiences, yours may be different.

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10-20-2016 11:25 PM  13 months agoPost 5
RM3

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Killeen, Texas - USA

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I have a Fluke Scope meter... I think I have an idea on how to set it up to record RPMs and rate of acceleration (throttle response) upon WOT... then overlay both graphs over each other.

I also have a stock 20cc engine... would be nice to add that into the test as a baseline.

what I dont have is a way to measure vibration electronically ... going by feel is very subjective.

I bit busy with school and other projects, but maybe I'll have time this weekend...

showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...

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10-21-2016 03:53 AM  13 months agoPost 6
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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I have some numbers from memory

A stock engine in my radikal G20 would turn the head at 1800 rpms at full collective. The Hanson modified engine upped that to 1880 rpms, then we souped it up some more and got it turning 1950 rpms at full collective, a good 150 rpms faster, with the gear ratio I think the G20 was at 6.43 IIRC meaning the stock vs the Hanson 3D max was about 1000 rpms more. I was swinging 640mm blades at the time, forgot the pitch but whatever it was with 1800 the same pitch and blades yielded 1950 with the modified motor.

I agree, compare the stock to your mods to the Wally Hyper 21.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4136 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3200 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1430 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 196 flts

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10-21-2016 08:26 AM  13 months agoPost 7
Pistol Pete

rrProfessor

Seffner, FL

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Vibration...
Gas tank behind engine on same platform can be a "visual" aid.

~~Enjoying the hobby one flight at a time~~

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10-22-2016 03:58 AM  13 months agoPost 8
Gearhead

rrMaster

Vt

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things to think about

as for the modified engines you may wish to use the same Carb on both engines, because even if you use 2 of the same Carb, 1 Carb could still perform better than the other, and that will not show true results,,
if you have 2 different mufflers try them both on both engines, same with carbs, if you have more carbs try them on both engines

also, remember you are testing with props, you can not test an engine with props and say a given prop makes the highest RPMs therefor I need to gear my heli for that RPM, so with that I suggest you call Wally, tell him what you are doing and get more info on how he test's with props,,
most average plane pilots prop their engines for peak RPM, but know that propping your engine for peak RPM is not where your engine is most efficient, an engine is most efficient at it's peak Torque RPM, for example> say your engine is most efficient at "8000", if you prop your engine to rev higher than 8000 you waist power and waist fuel, prop it to rev lower than 8000 you waist power and waist fuel,
also, if your engine is tuned correctly it should stay it's coolest at the RPM where it is most efficient,
14x4, 14x6, 14x12
well it seams to me if you want to stick to testing 14 inch long props you need more props, X7, X8, X9, X10, X11,,, you will need a temperature gun.

and you say you want to test throttle response, testing Pitch, Temp and Throttle Response against RPM will get you close to the Peak Torque RPM

BTW, just to note, some 6 months ago I called BH Hanson about my Hanson mod'ed 20, he told me it should swing a 16X8 over 8000, as I remember it was 8600

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz

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10-22-2016 05:31 AM  13 months agoPost 9
RM3

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Killeen, Texas - USA

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sorry you testing idea is wrong.

here is why.

Testing with the same carb is a no no... Wally supplied the hyper21 with a specific carb set to perform in THAT engine design specifically.

Mine is designed to gain from a different carb.

Both will test with the same V2... because it WAS NOT supplied with either engine.... they will use the same fuel, same sparkplug, same set of props, same ignition system within the same time of day to maintain identical air temps and pressure.

Props are selected based on operating RPM suitable for helicopter use. we are testing for HP... we are thus calculating HP based on RPMs.

No one here flys thier 600 or 700 class gasser with an engine running at 8600 rpms... the clutch does not begin to engage until 7k to begin with. Most engines to include TRMs specifically state that the best RPM range is in the 12K range. An engine that produces 3 hp at 8k does not produce the same HP at 12K rpms. All engines have a curve for HP... and its not straight and nor is the torque you know this.

By using a thrust calculator HP can be determined based on the props diameter, pitch, blade count, and prop constant given the RPM the engine could muster provided the tip speed stays under the speed of sound. By changing the pitch we only change ONE variable concerning the load onto the engine. If I had 5 more props with a 14inch diameter, starting at 4 pitch and progressivly higher by 0.5 inch that would be ideal, but only I only have the x4, x6 and x12... props bigger than 6 load the engine under 10K, we dont fly at that RPM, a x4 pushes that up just over 14K which is over speed.

I have already tested a stock 20cc engine, it produced 1.87hp based on a 14x6 prop at 10,800 rpms set up with the supplied carb which matched up with the stated HP by the manufacturer as well as other independent tests conducted by other modelers.

showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...

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10-22-2016 05:39 AM  13 months agoPost 10
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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I don't see the need to over complicate it​with many props

You got "14x6 prop at 10,800 rpms " with the stock motor.

Now put that prop on your engine as well as Wally's engine and I bet both are going to turn more than 10,800 rpms. The one that turns the most is in turn going to perform the best in the helicopter (as far as power, vibration could be another story).

About carbs, you could try Wally's carb on your engine and visa versa to see what the differences are. You might find that Wally's carb may perform better in your engine, and/or maybe not.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4136 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3200 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1430 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 196 flts

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10-22-2016 05:47 AM  13 months agoPost 11
RM3

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Killeen, Texas - USA

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wallys carb is the stock WT-811 Walbro that comes from the factory for the G200PU... there were no changes carb wise that I could see after disassembly. The engine does have extensive mods to the cylinder ports, transfers and piston as well as crank shaft though.

showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...

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10-22-2016 10:41 AM  13 months agoPost 12
mcfast

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Quebec Quebec Canada

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This should be interesting !

P.S. sorry for the spelling or the grammar I am dyslexic!

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10-22-2016 03:50 PM  13 months agoPost 13
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Hanson

Modified his carb for the G20 at the time, but didn't use an 811 if I recall correctly, in fact I didn't think the stock carb with the G20 was an 811 but its been several years so not sure about that.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4136 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3200 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1430 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 196 flts

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10-22-2016 08:21 PM  13 months agoPost 14
Gearhead

rrMaster

Vt

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I don't see the need to over complicate it with many props
of course you would say something like that Raja, after I posted,, he said he wanted to measure throttle response, he asked for inputs, sound's like he wants to know more about the efficiency of the Power Bands of his engines, I replied with suggestions,
The one that turns the most is in turn going to perform the best in the helicopter
just like that ?? I think not !!
if he just want's to know peak RPM for a plane, fine then, but these are Helis, 2 different engines can turn the same RPMs, yet have 2 different Power Bands, he can have 2 engines that can turn 620 blades at 2000, yet only one of those 2 engines may turn 640 blades at 1950 <just an example,, also> one engine may bog at 70% throttle while flying hard with 640 blades while the other may not,,

to me it sounds this is why he wants to see the throttle responses of each engine

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz

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10-22-2016 08:33 PM  13 months agoPost 15
Gearhead

rrMaster

Vt

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my Hanson mod'ed G20 came with a 643

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz

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10-22-2016 08:57 PM  13 months agoPost 16
Gearhead

rrMaster

Vt

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No one here flys thier 600 or 700 class gasser with an engine running at 8600 rpms
thanks for telling me,

I'm not asking you to test at 8600, and I have no idea what a 14X9 or 14X11 will turn up to,, if you try more props to load your engines you will see the RPMs where your Power Bands start and how well each engine pulls at given Throttle settings
Testing with the same carb is a no no... Wally supplied the hyper21 with a specific carb set to perform in THAT engine design specifically.
OK, so you know (without testing) Wally's carb wont work better on your engine than your carb

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz

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10-22-2016 09:01 PM  13 months agoPost 17
RM3

rrElite Veteran

Killeen, Texas - USA

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different engines can turn the same RPMs, yet have 2 different Power Bands,
I agree with you there... but the issue is that in a heli the engine is running a very narrow RPM band to maintain a set headspeed...

please dont turn this into a pissing match about power band, torque and HP curves and a crap load of its and buts...(granted I know its the gasser section and this is usually the end result).

this is about peak power (HP @ RPMs) which our helis depend on to maintain headspeed under load.

the only reason Im using three different pitch props is to get different numbers around the RPM range we tend to run gasser in a Heli which is between 10K to 14K.
OK, so you know (without testing) Wally's carb wont work better on your engine than your carb
yes I do... I tested 4 different carbs and ended up with DDM's big bore carb as producing the best throttle response AND power.

I plan on testing today and will start a new thread.

showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...

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10-22-2016 09:18 PM  13 months agoPost 18
Gearhead

rrMaster

Vt

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props bigger than 6 load the engine under 10K
fine, I did not know that, you brought up the fact that you have a X12, so I thought you wanted to test it on both engines, so with that I suggested you to get more props with less pitch, if you test more props you'll get more insight on the power bands, thats all

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz

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10-23-2016 02:25 AM  13 months agoPost 19
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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About the power

I stand by what I said, the engine that makes the most power with a given prop will have the most power.

Yes you can fly a helicopter with several engines at 2000 rpms, but that's at hover pitch. Now open up the collective to full, and all the engines are going to load up. One will hold 1950 (Hanson 3D max), one 1880 (Hanson Pro plus) and one will be 1800 (Stock G20).

At the end of the day, a constant repeatable load is going to be your best tell tale test, in other words, the full collective climbout as its repeatable all the time, or a prop like a 14x6 or whatever that puts the engine into the rpm range of the heli is going to be ideal.

Carbs do make a difference, I tested several and found that the 643 worked best on the G20 hence why it was supplied with the Hanson motor when you bought it Jim.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4136 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3200 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1430 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 196 flts

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