One more.. before ya all take off for Dalton.

Right now.. ONE (1) can enter the nats and win.. (or its not clear what if any minimum is called out in 518...)

I would like to get others feelings on having a NATS (Nats only) 5 class contestants minimum. If 5 are not preregistered by said date, the contest is canceled. If 5 are preregistered and 2 (or whatever)drop out due to car trouble, wife trouble or just trouble.. the contest GOES ON!

OK... on to Dalton.

Grim

Michael J Zaborowski

The things you are suggesting are called rule changes. If you want to change the rules, submit a rule change proposal and in about 3 years you will find out whether your suggestions are good or not, when the rules are changed or not.

Darrell cannot change the rules arbitrarily, no matter how many want them changed. And yes, it does take 3 years to get the rules changed.

And while you are at it, you seem very interested in the running of the event, why don't you offer to relieve Darrell of that responsibility. He is probably ready for a break and may even enter again himself.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

If that is in effect, and it happens a couple of years in a row, you can kiss the heli nats goodbye, as no one will enter, or want to dedicate the time to be the CD. Also, some entries happen a couple of days before the event, so i dont see how this will work, or why it should even be in place.

Ive taken part in the scale nats a few times since 07 and every year at ircha that I attended since 2002. there are a few things I would like to see happen for the nats, they have nothing to do with the rules. Up until a few years ago, you got some nice incentives with your registration, a bag of goodies and a T-Shirt. Those who attend ircha know what I mean. Yeah it may be a small thing to some, but its a small thing to look forward to. my biggest gripe has been the little or no coverage of the event in the AMA magazine. I saw nothing of it in 2014, and last year when I took 1st place, a very subtle pic of myself and machine appeared. Now I don't so much care about a pic of me, but I wasn't the only one flying at the nats. there were several others who put the time, money and effort to get there like I did and their names weren't even mentioned in the text. After seeing so many fotos taken by ama staff there, not one made it to the magazine and I found that very disappointing! Coverage plays a big part in exposure which leads to interest and attendance. look at Dalton, the difference in attendance since my 1st time in 2002 and now is amazing, it grows every year and now there's talk about a bigger place to hold the event, and it has several times gotten excellent coverage in several magazines.
As for the "gentleman's agreement" on how often the same heli being entered again after a 1st place win, my personal preference was voiced in my previous post but that said, I think we can all agree that winning 1st place one year doesn't guarantee a win again in the future, so if a contestant want to try again with the same helo, i say go for it. there are many awesome builders out there and I love the fun and anticipation in seeing what new model they bring next time.
as for the rules, unless they start requiring more smarts than I have, I will keep at it til I have had enough.

drive a rotary, fly a rotorcraft

Peter,

Please READ POST 7...

I am EXPLORING the idea of a proposal.. NO MORE, NO LESS.

Yes.. I KNOW ONE HAS TO SUBMIT CHANGES...

I WILL NOT DRAFT a proposal WITHOUT some research on the subject..

Moving along..

Grim

Michael J Zaborowski

East Coast

Sounds like the idea of 5 just MIGHT play well in to your (a few enter just days before the event).. They would know what's going on.. they have AT LEAST 5 to fly with.

On that note.. What is disheartening is spending a bunch of money (I know.. I know...relative to ones pockets).. and not REALLY knowing who is making the show.. this year it was two.. two years ago it was two..(in 518)..

And you think if we make changes its going to get WORCE! and RUIN IT....

Make (Suggest) no changes and expect a BETTER RESULT?

So far this has been good.. lets let Darrell see what he drums up and maybe, just maybe we will have a better understanding of what "might" be going on or what "changes" might help bump up the numbers..

Grim

Michael J Zaborowski

Here is the problem with the Nats. No one double checks before official results are announced!!!!

Posted on RR by Doorman on 8/4/16
CONGRATS!!!
Glad to hear our "buddy" Michael (grimracer) is the latest scale champ...scores looked really close!!!
Great job...
Stan

Posted on RR BY Copter Doctor 8/4/16
Correction
Actually Mike took 2nd place, Brian shaw took the top spot. We are at ircha now talking about it and having s good time :-)
The scale tent is getting full already!
drive a rotary, fly a rotorcraft

Posted on AMA NATS News letter by AMA ON 8/3/16
Scale
1 Mike Zaborowski 1886.806
2 Bernard Shaw 1865.337
One round of static,3 rounds of flying
drop lowest normalized

Posted on AMA NATS News letter by AMA on 8/5/16
Scale
1 Bernard Shaw 1886.806
2 Mike Zaborowski 1865.337
One round of static,3 rounds of flying
drop lowest normalized

Keep in mind there were only two Competitors this year and they couldn't get the scores/names correct. From past experience, I am very familiar with the situation.

Eric Babineaux
Starwood Scale Models
AMA# 3048 CD
Contest Board Representative
AMA District VIII Helicopters

Eric,

On thing is for sure.. the 518 scoring system is VERY confusing.. I know its just numbers but goodness..

I just ran a scale airplane contest last weekend.. the scoring was easy. We had no conflicts and all went well. They don't do all that normalizing. I understand it.. just don't feel its all that necessary for our heli events.

And.. truth is me and math don't get along all that well anyway...lol

Simple seems better to me..

On we go.

Gim

Michael J Zaborowski

Who said these post were official? I have no control of wrong info being posted. Just a thought.
Darrell

As a new guy that would like to be able to get my work life in such a place that allows me the time to actually enter the NATS, I dont think I have a problem with someone wanting to enter the same winning helicopter year after year. If I were lucky enough to win (in my perfect dream world), I personally would not enter the same winning machine the following year. I would personally want to challenge myself to build a different and hopefully better machine to compete within later competitions. But I am a slow ass builder so it would take me at least two years, if not longer to build a new machine anyway.

Steve

Just my .02... I get tired of the airplane crew always getting the lions share of attention in the magazines. Scale heli guys get a postage stamp sized pic and an honorable mention, if you're lucky. This crap goes way back and probably will never change. The magazines cater to the biggest portion of the hobby. One example: multi copters got close to zero coverage years ago. Now they are in the mags every month... As there sales increase, so does the magazine coverage...
Barry

All helis and planes have an expiration date stamped on them...you only find it after you crash!!

Same complaints, different decade,LOL.

I personally don't feel the media.. or getting free stuff is the answerer. I go to lots of events that get far more turnout and lets face it.. RC boating does not even have a mag anymore..lol

I also however don't think it hurts. Our largest RC boat race, The Masters. Has 15K in prizes. They have to limit the number of entry's to 250. Having said this I don't think its the prizes that bring in the racers (don't hurt but), its the "wanting to win a masters" and the local town.. (a bunch of townies (1,500 or so) hang out and watch the race). The mayor comes out and helps too.. (Hobart IN)

We love racing with a fun audience!

Anyway..

Doing research for a living and what not.. I just want to try to understand what "Might" be going on or what "might" help get numbers up.. again.. we can choose to do nothing and I think we see where that is going.. or we can ATTEMPT to understand, suggest
changes and "give it a go".... wont happen over night.

I guess one should ask..

Do we think we have a attendance numbers problem with the 518 class at the AMA nats? Yes or no is fine..

Grim

Michael J Zaborowski

At one time there was so little participation in scale that the AMA was considering eliminating 518. As long as one guy kept showing up, they wouldn't drop it.

It's not crashed 'til it hits the ground

Top Gun (fixed wing) had a retirement rule but if memory serves it took more than winning once, even then the model could be campaigned again if it under went a new scheme.

As of 2015 they eliminated the rule and made it retroactive so that any previously "retired" models could compete.

My guess is that was made to increase participation because as others have said, you don't always have the means or time to build a competition machine each year.

IMO there's always improvements that can be made to a model based on static scores, and flight scores based on judging feedback, and a whole year to practice so I would think maybe 3 wins and retire would be reasonable if you want to prevent a monopoly but if someone kept beating me I would just do my best to be better the next year.

That said, while I cover a lot of events, I'm not a competitor though I played competitive sports most of my youth. So just my 2 cents on the subject.

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

Andy,

Thanks for taking the time to read the thread and make that post.

Grim

Michael J Zaborowski

There were several years when a specific individual ran the Nats, and we never had less than 8 competitors, sometimes as many as 12-14. He pestered people to enter, and it worked. If you leave it to peoples own devices, they will not enter. Money does not make a difference, neither does prizes. Unless, of course, you want to give away a new car or something along those lines, LOL.

Eric
There were 6 classes going at the same time and only 3 people working. There is a opening for next year. I stopped flying to help maybe that was a mistake. Your problem was not the same. Nats news is done all in one day pictures taken write up printed and pass out by hand. The final score is not in stone until all the scores are in.
Darrell

East Coast.. good post..

I too feel pear pressure is a great motivator. IF (IF) we had a 5 count minimum it would be easer to put pressure on your competitors to enter.

I would not mind seeing an on line registration system either.. like EventZilla or whatever. We use this one for Boating

http://www.rcracingevents.com/

Its easy pesey and does help with head counts..

Anyway.. keep the thoughts coming.

Thanks again

Grim

Michael J Zaborowski

I stopped flying to help maybe that was a mistake. Your problem was not the same. Nats news is done all in one day pictures taken write up printed and pass out by hand. The final score is not in stone until all the scores are in.
Darrell

IMO heli Nats format has been the detrimental in the last 10 yrs or so.
I known, I was there

Everything needs a good shakedown IMO, but like all other heli disciplines, scale is experiencing the same reduction in participation all other areas are experiencing.

All the boating comparison is not correlational.

.