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HelicopterMain Discussion › To stab or not to stab...
07-22-2016 06:43 PM  16 months agoPost 1
NitroMedic

rrApprentice

Southwest, Louisiana

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Hey guys,

I was wondering if anyone here flies WITHOUT a stab. system on their 3, 4, or 5 blade heads? I've messed with the V-bars for a while (I have 3) but was just wondering if it was absolutely necessary to have one on my 4 & 5 blade helis. I know the GY750 can handle it but what about just a standard GY401? I understand it would probably create a bit of a learning curve but can/is it being done?

And if this is a ridiculously silly question, I apologize.

Thanks!

Hey y'all, watch this!

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07-22-2016 06:51 PM  16 months agoPost 2
don s

rrElite Veteran

Chesapeake, VA

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You can get by without a 3-axis, but your flying workload will increase. You may not enjoy it as much.

E820, Raptor G4N, X50F/E, E620, Forza 450, and some planks.

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07-22-2016 07:14 PM  16 months agoPost 3
NitroMedic

rrApprentice

Southwest, Louisiana

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Good to know

Gotcha. Thanks for the feedback, Don. That's what I was looking for.

Any one else with experience with this please feel free to chime in.

Hey y'all, watch this!

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07-22-2016 08:36 PM  16 months agoPost 4
co_rotorhead

rrVeteran

Centennial, CO, USA

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I've flown a 4-blade head, mechanically phased, w/o estab. Like don s said, it's totally doable, but it can keep you on your toes --especially if trying to fly in any type of wind. I feel much more comfortable with estab and electronic phasing on my multi-blade heads (I have a few 4- and 5-blade helis now). I fly iKONs on all of them.

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07-22-2016 10:15 PM  16 months agoPost 5
NitroMedic

rrApprentice

Southwest, Louisiana

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Anyone using these?

These little Kbars are for 450, 500 & 550 helis. I use them on my 450 T-rex and they work great. Not bad for about $40. Yes, $40! They come with USB connector and all necessary cables to install. Programming is just like any other standard stab. system, done on a laptop. Just thought I'd throw this out there in case someone was looking for a cheap alternative for their 450, 500 or 550.

Hey y'all, watch this!

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07-22-2016 10:17 PM  16 months agoPost 6
NitroMedic

rrApprentice

Southwest, Louisiana

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co_rotorhead

Hey man, thanks for the info. Do you find the iKon fairly easy to program? It took me a while to get used to the V-bar.

Hey y'all, watch this!

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07-22-2016 10:44 PM  16 months agoPost 7
co_rotorhead

rrVeteran

Centennial, CO, USA

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I found the iKON setup to be pretty straightforward. Install the software (free) on your laptop/PC, connect to the iKON via USB cable (included with the iKON) and use the wizard to walk you through all of the basic set up. That will get you flying. There's an advanced menu which you can use if you want to adjust your various gain settings. I fly mostly scale stuff nowadays, so a very basic set up is all I need, except for the phasing angle, which is under CCPM in the advanced menu. And that's easy too.

The V1 and V2 versions of the iKON have an optional bluetooth module you can buy so you can use a mobile version of the software from your phone or tablet. That's handy at the field if you need to tweak something while you're out flying. The new iKON2 has bluetooth built-in.

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07-22-2016 11:56 PM  16 months agoPost 8
NitroMedic

rrApprentice

Southwest, Louisiana

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Ahh ok. That's good to know. I'm definitely looking for simplicity and the iKon sounds like a good alternative. And the bluetooth sounds like a nice feature to have. Nothing like getting to the field and realizing you need to make an important adjustment in the settings.

Thanks for the info.

Hey y'all, watch this!

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07-25-2016 08:19 PM  16 months agoPost 9
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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These little Kbars are for 450, 500 & 550 helis. I use them on my 450 T-rex and they work great. Not bad for about $40. Yes, $40! They come with USB connector and all necessary cables to install. Programming is just like any other standard stab. system, done on a laptop. Just thought I'd throw this out there in case someone was looking for a cheap alternative for their 450, 500 or 550.
Ever notice that they look exactly like a Mikado VBAR and use the Mikado software to set them up??? That is because they are stolen IP. Don't use them....

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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07-26-2016 12:08 AM  16 months agoPost 10
Copter Doctor

rrProfessor

Enterprise/ft.rucker​,al- home of army​aviation

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Stab units

I have been flying multibladed heads for many years and it is possible to comfortably fly one without a stab system in most cases, its the way I have been doing it since the beginning. when I first started playing with flybarless (multibladed) heads, stab systems were not available so I researched and experimented. the key to any good flying machine is set up and a multibladed head is no exception.

drive a rotary, fly a rotorcraft

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07-26-2016 12:29 AM  16 months agoPost 11
Copter Doctor

rrProfessor

Enterprise/ft.rucker​,al- home of army​aviation

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blades

they make all the difference. back in the day, composite blades were not yet popular, it was natural fiber (wood) an ideal set of blades had a lot of weight in the tip and the cg of the blade was located very far forward of the blade chord line, with wood blades, it was easy to route them out to add more weight. GMP helicopters proved this with the legend. With no fbl units available, It flew and felt like a flybarred head especially in the hover and in forward flight, the only difference is that you had more forward stick in than normally associated with a flybarred head.
the heavy blades created a heavy rotor disc and we know what a heavy disc does for stability, it increases it. nowadays there are all kinds of composite blades and some are even made specifically for a flybarless head. while I have never compared a set of fbl blades to a reg set but I select blades that are as heavy as possible and the maximum length the machine will allow to be fitted.

drive a rotary, fly a rotorcraft

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07-26-2016 12:42 AM  16 months agoPost 12
Copter Doctor

rrProfessor

Enterprise/ft.rucker​,al- home of army​aviation

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set up

Not really complicated and certainly easier than it is for me to do than the stab units, seems you have to have more knowledge than I do about computers to even understand the instructions.
first order of business is Phasing, phasing doesn't affect stability its more a control thing. you adjust phasing so when you push the stick forward, well the heli goes forward and not forward and slightly right or left etc. this is usually a ataight forward thing and I do it on the bench perfect everytime with no worries about it when I do the first flight. Phasing can be complex when done mechanically if you have a lot of blades like five or more. the five pc links sharing the 360 degree of space with a swash driver tend to get crowded and the "twist" method finds rods rubbing against drivers. This is a big plus when using a fbl unit as it electronically does this for you and your pc rods can remain vertical. I however have overcome this by mechanically phasing the head but by offsetting the lower ring of the swash to achieve proper phasing.
when flying a multibladed head, swash movements aren't as much as with a flybarred head they are about 30 to 70 percent that of a flybarred head. being more sensitive thry only require a bit less movement to get the same feel.
Balance is a major factor with a multi head model, in fact its critical to fwd flt performance. a tail heavy machine will be a handful on a windy day and in fwd flight even on a calm day. the results are much more comfortable with a slightly nose heavy machine. it will be less pitchy and tracks much smoother.

drive a rotary, fly a rotorcraft

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07-26-2016 01:02 AM  16 months agoPost 13
Copter Doctor

rrProfessor

Enterprise/ft.rucker​,al- home of army​aviation

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Last year at the 2015 AMA nationals, the helicopter that took first place in the scale helicopter category was flown without a flybarless/stabilization unit. It was one of two that did not have a stab unit on board. The other heli had a flybarred head.
here are a few vids of my machines, all flying without a stab unit.
the Blackhawk sling loading the Humvee needed a stab unit....for the Humvee

Watch at YouTube

Watch at YouTube

Watch at YouTube

Watch at YouTube

Watch at YouTube

drive a rotary, fly a rotorcraft

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07-27-2016 02:33 PM  16 months agoPost 14
doorman

rrProfessor

Sherwood, Arkansas

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Took Us To Church!!

Emile's posts really laid out the no stab/yes stab questions.. and his info, as he mentioned, is from years of experience, testing and practice... I watched his NATS winning flight wo a stab and there was no way to tell there wasn't one onboard..
I have also flown, 3,4,&5 wo and with good results... but for me, I don't want to work that hard any longer!!! So, I do use stab systems on all of mine... much more relaxed flying!!
Stan

AMA 2918-Team JR, Spin Blades, East Coast Scale Helicopter,Castle Creations

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07-27-2016 04:26 PM  16 months agoPost 15
revmix

rrKey Veteran

NJ

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without FBL electronic unit the low-headspeed r/c heli works as the f/s chopper,
notice the long grip-arms for linkages, smooth cyclic movement from swashplate

GY401 tail gyro only
600size setup with asymmetrical blades
CopterX floating head with lead-lag & flapping

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07-27-2016 05:41 PM  16 months agoPost 16
R.J.

rrVeteran

SF bay area, CA USA

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Agree with what has already been said. You can do without, but you have to fly the heli ALL the time. You cannot just relax on the sticks and watch it fly. You have to hold the stick forward and to the side in straight forward flight. Been there and done that. I prefer a FBL controller.

But having said that, you may want to experience it for yourself, just to see how it is. If you do, pay attention to Copter Doctor's advice on the Setup and especially the Blades. You want heavy blades with the chordwise CG well forward for stability.

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07-27-2016 06:20 PM  16 months agoPost 17
revmix

rrKey Veteran

NJ

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all depends on the rotor disk RPM & swash-tilt as servo-speed & end point travel,
also DR & Expo settings

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07-27-2016 07:59 PM  16 months agoPost 18
Copter Doctor

rrProfessor

Enterprise/ft.rucker​,al- home of army​aviation

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Guess I've been doing it too long, its very relaxing for me to fly.. As mentioned, setup is key as with any heli.

drive a rotary, fly a rotorcraft

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07-27-2016 08:15 PM  16 months agoPost 19
Heli_Splatter

rrElite Veteran

USA

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Cudos Copter Doctor... I cannot say that I will ever try it, but it is on the list. Way to prove a point.

Are you flying tail gyros?

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07-27-2016 08:36 PM  16 months agoPost 20
revmix

rrKey Veteran

NJ

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its very relaxing for me to fly
just like with everything else; relation of brain reaction & finger muscles

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HelicopterMain Discussion › To stab or not to stab...
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