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HelicopterMain Discussion › Why aren't any hobby manufactures doing anything about drone registration?
12-21-2015 04:36 AM  24 months agoPost 41
Aaron29

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USA

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Second, the FAA has been actively looking into this "problem" LONG before multirotors were even invented, beginning sometime around 2001, 14 YEARS AGO! So blaming Multirotors for the current state of affairs is also ignorant and wrong.
Can you expand on this or point to any indicators and references? Because it would revolutionize the way I'm thinking, for sure, to see that this has been a long term agenda.

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12-21-2015 04:46 AM  24 months agoPost 42
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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Nice rant Terry, but I have to disagree and suggest you put your emotions in check and look at the facts of the matter.
First, while DJI may currently be the biggest seller of multirotors, they were certainly not the first, and they certainly aren't the ONLY game in town. So blaming DJI for the current state of affairs is not only ignorant, it's simply wrong.
Second, the FAA has been actively looking into this "problem" LONG before multirotors were even invented, beginning sometime around 2001, 14 YEARS AGO! So blaming Multirotors for the current state of affairs is also ignorant and wrong.
Third, the HOBBY was warned long ago to be on the lookout for FAA action, but thanks to the many naysayers, trolls, and emoticons out there, it was poo poo'd as tin foil hat imagination, and ignored. Well here we are and now everyone is running around screaming bloody murder.
Fourth, attempting to place blame isn't going to get this issue resolved. Banding together in one large voice is our only recourse, and right now, like it or not, that only voice the HOBBY has is the AMA. Due to how my own business model has changed over the last few years I have let my AMA membership lapse.
I will be renewing tomorrow.
I'm only one, and all of you are only one. But by putting all of our ones together, we may make a loud enough voice to get us at least heard. Will it be enough? Only time will tell. But I do know what WON'T work. Fighting amongst ourselves, trying to place blame, or trying to "fix" something other than the real problem.
We all know that these new regs will do nothing to enhance "safety" in the NAS, simply because the stupid will continue to be stupid. Those disinclined to follow the law will continue to be disinclined to follow the law, no matter how many MORE laws they make.
Just my $.02....
Thanks Chris but it's not a rant.

I never said that DJI was the first or the only game in town. What they are is the most prolific and visible. It's the company that everyone sees when there is a knucklehead that is doing something stupid.

I'm well aware of how long the FAA has been looking at us but the Multirotors brought this situation to the forefront of the American People, hence our representatives in Washington are now getting the calls from frustrated voters which didn't occur before, this is new. Not to mention that modeling in general never got much bad publicity like we are now.

To your third point see above.

I haven' let my AMA membership lapse, in fact I just reupped it for 2 more years when the AMA ran their little discount opportunity so I've been all in, all the time. Placing blame is a two edge sword, on the one hand DJI has played a big role here but OTOH they could have stepped up during the Registration Taskforce and taken care of the issue and lead on it but they didn't. None of the folks that make these machines stepped up and they lumped us in there among the idiots that they are selling the machines to so they could protect their business model and keep on selling this stuff. What they did was to cover their asses and made it easy for the FAA to implement their plan which was conceived a long time ago.

I'm disappointed that you let your membership lapse Chris. It shows an alarming lack of faith on your part but I'm glad that you've seen the light and will be renewing tomorrow. Glad to have you back.

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12-21-2015 04:47 AM  24 months agoPost 43
gologo

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Sedalia, Mo USA

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I'm only one, and all of you are only one. But by putting all of our ones together, we may make a loud enough voice to get us at least heard. Will it be enough? Only time will tell. But I do know what WON'T work. Fighting amongst ourselves, trying to place blame, or trying to "fix" something other than the real problem.
We all know that these new regs will do nothing to enhance "safety" in the NAS, simply because the stupid will continue to be stupid. Those disinclined to follow the law will continue to be disinclined to follow the law, no matter how many MORE laws they make.
Absolutely and AMEN! I have been reading soooo many threads and posts with
all the in-fighting. Making my head hurt! 'Divide and conquer' sure comes
to mind........

And that statement that has been made so many times, needs to be heard by
the FAA about a million times.....Registering WILL NOT stop these incidents
or the people creating them!

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12-21-2015 04:52 AM  24 months agoPost 44
Aaron29

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USA

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No this pure genius by the FAA. Pass the register rule. Registration fails to correct problem. Then they can point to congress and say "but we were limited from making any new laws"

Then, their muzzle may very well be removed by congress if enough political pressure were to mount.

I hope there is a counter media campaign in the works. Doing things like showing that little Batman flyer and then mocking that little Johnny needs to register it with the Feds. And other such mockery. Make a mockery out of this stuff and maybe people will see it for what it is. I think a media campaign is in order.

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12-21-2015 05:03 AM  24 months agoPost 45
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Terry - the "Free AMA membership when you buy a drone from Best Buy" wasn't free. The $75 membership fee is paid by Best Buy. See this post from Nick Crego:

https://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/p6534527/

I have been to Best Buy and in the "drone" section is a large and obvious display of $75 AMA gift cards.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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12-21-2015 05:07 AM  24 months agoPost 46
Aaron29

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USA

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As for DJI. Yes, they suck. Yes they should get involved with the solution.

But no, I don't think they can be forced to. Especially if FAA has an ulterior agenda. The fires will never redirect onto DJI if the FAA is getting exactly what it wants on account of all this.

Chris / Terry - y'all make two people now have chimed in that FAA had a long term plan. Can someone show me it? It will revolutionize how I'm perceiving this problem.

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12-21-2015 05:23 AM  24 months agoPost 47
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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Terry - the "Free AMA membership when you buy a drone from Best Buy" wasn't free. The $75 membership fee is paid by Best Buy. See this post from Nick Crego:
https://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/p6534527/
I have been to Best Buy and in the "drone" section iss a large and obvious display of $75 AMA gift cards.
I said this originally: "BestBuy was even offering a deal that if you purchased a Drone, they would give you a free AMA membership."

Thanks Dave. It's good to see AMA answering direct questions. If you get a free membership for buying an aerial appliance how can the LHS compete with that? Is that fair? I know you didn't get a free membership with the last heli you bought. I didn't either. I'm glad Best Buy is stepping up but I can tell you that a lot of the LHS' can't afford to match that deal.

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12-21-2015 01:14 PM  24 months agoPost 48
chas1025

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TN

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Dear DJI,

We, the hobbyists, would like to thank you for giving us the opportunity to perform all of the early beta testing on your multi rotors. We are pretty sure that without all of our early testing, your success would not have grown to allow you to build your beautiful new building. Many hear wonder why you no longer support the hobby, attend any events, or support the hobby that actually got your business started. We served our purpose.

http://gizmodo.com/djis-first-flags...aven-1749002379

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12-21-2015 01:20 PM  24 months agoPost 49
LaDon

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Fort Dodge .Ia

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I didn't know much about DJI but did some looking. You guys think that they care? Yeah right! It is another Chinese based company that could give a rats a$$ about what regulations over here. All they want is as much money as they can get out of us quickly and poof they will be gone. It will be off to make the new smart flashlight must have to get more money. They just make it look good while they can

Team Jr

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12-21-2015 01:22 PM  24 months agoPost 50
MartyH

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USA

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No one cares and most will ignore registration outside of the organized hobby fliers such as AMA members. The manufacturers won't get involved unless compelled to by law. Why would they? Keep pumping out the toys and take the money. The average end user probably doesn't know and will not care when they do find out. There won't be any enforcement to speak of. Heaven help the guy who does get tagged in an incident though that will be statistically very unlikely.

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12-21-2015 03:05 PM  24 months agoPost 51
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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We, the hobbyists, would like to thank you for giving us the opportunity to perform all of the early beta testing on your multi rotors. We are pretty sure that without all of our early testing, your success would not have grown to allow you to build your beautiful new building. Many hear wonder why you no longer support the hobby, attend any events, or support the hobby that actually got your business started. We served our purpose.
http://gizmodo.com/djis-first-flags...aven-1749002379
That's an excellent point Charles. There are quite a few early adopters of the S800 with Wookong-M that gave many thousands of dollars, a few skid marks and soiled underwear to that effort alone. I distinctly remember one S800 going down in a crowd while filming a race in VA. There was a ton of Beta testing going on then. We as a group (I have a Naza V1/V2 in an F550) beta tested their stuff and had to put up with lousy tech support and lots of denials and in case anyone forgets the perp involved with that is now at 3D Robotics taking money from the hobby. There are still traces of the throwdowns with that idiot that ran DJI back then right here on this forum. If you recall he showed up at IRCHA too.

All these manufacturers used the expertise and modeling skills present on this forum and others to further their goals, they didn't do it by themselves, no company ever does. Look at the Smartphone Beta testers out here.

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12-21-2015 04:51 PM  24 months agoPost 52
GyroFreak

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Orlando Florida ...28N 81W

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Every time it boots up and locks on to the GPS Sats the system connects to the DJI servers and requests an update. I've seen it over and over again.
But that requires a cell phone that has downloaded the App and given permission by the owner, the owner of the cell phone. Of course most
will apply this app to get updates I suppose.
most will ignore registration outside of the organized hobby fliers such as AMA members.
Hmm, that brings up a question in my mind, will the AMA require you to be registered before allowing you to join ? While currently the AMA is fighting this law(?) they may be forced to include this as part of the AMA membership someday.
Or some flying fields may require proof of registration, along with proof of AMA membership.
.
Just things going thru my 'What If' style of thinking.
Paul

I think about the hereafter. I go somewhere to get something, then wonder what I'm here after ?

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12-21-2015 06:10 PM  24 months agoPost 53
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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As to how long this has been on the FAA Radar, I can only relate my own personal experience on a 3 way conference call I was a party to in 2001.

I had taken over ownership of Bergen R/C Helicopters in 1999, but was still working full time at Delta in Atlanta, leaving my father to continue managing the day to day operations until I could avail myself of the opportunity to leave Delta.

Sometime in 2001, summer I believe, I was asked to participate in a 3 way call with my father and a project officer at the FAA, with the topic being the use of R/C Helicopters for Aerial Photography, of which we were selling the original Observer aircraft.

Questions asked included how this was being done, ranges of distance, safety protocols (if any), size and weight of the aircraft being used, etc, etc, etc.

We also had in our lineup, our Industrial Birds, being used by MANY Universities and Colleges in the Aerial Robotics Competition held at Ft. Benning GA every year. The questions asked about those included the usual, how much weight, how much flight time, etc.

Over the ensuing years I got involved with RCAPA (Radio Controlled Aerial Photography Association) with Patrick Eagan, who was valiantly trying to warn the community of this impending govt regulation, and was, as I said, poo poo'd, called a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist, and actually BLAMED for this impending regulation!!

I posted earlier the list of the members of the Task Force put together to figure out this "registration" thing. Did any of you notice it? Look at it? Notice that along with AMA, DJI WAS there? AS was 3DR, and a couple other manufacturers. Those that are asking DJI to fix this problem, questioning what have THEY done to address it, do you know what their input was? Do you think they pushed for this to happen, or spoke against it? As any transcripts haven't been produced, I suggest that you have no effin clue...

Now I suggest that DJI HAS been on the forefront of trying to stay ahead of FAA regulation, trying to placate the FAA's concerns with the programming of all the airport locations in their software, preventing flight in those areas! Any kudos from you guys? not a peep...

Charles, your bias is peeking through a bit. How many OTHER models throughout the years have undergone improvements based on CUSTOMER issues and feedback? Sure glad those "beta testers" of the original Schluter helicopters did their jobs, crashing all those POS heli's that were underpowered, under controlled, and If I may, downright DANGEROUS!!

OH! As long as they were built and setup properly they were just fine? Hmmm.... Good point!!

Chris D. Bergen

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12-21-2015 06:44 PM  24 months agoPost 54
chas1025

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TN

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Chris,

From a product perspective DJI does make a nice product. Customer Service is considered by many who have used it atrocious, but if you don't need service the product is good.

I don't really have a bias as I own DJI products, but I do feel they used the hobby industry for their launch/beta and instead of giving back, they ran toward the money. They could have profited from the general consumer base and still remained true to the hobby industry.

If you look at Horizon, they have launched their Chroma and other multi rotor products, but they still attend events, and support the hobby. They are the example to which DJI does not compare.

Now in your example, hobbyists were beta test subjects for Schluter--way before me so I take your word for it. From what I understand Schluter stayed in the hobby as long as business would allow, then went out of business.

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12-21-2015 09:49 PM  24 months agoPost 55
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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And to be clear, I have no problem with Schluter heli's, my point was that EVERY product we have ever used, from ANY manufacturer, has to at some point be put in the customers hands. And unfortunately, THAT'S when you find how badly you've underestimated the general public's ability to f uck things up...

Does every product work perfectly in every case the first time out? Hardly ever. Since you contend that Schluter was before your time, then may I suggest you look at the original T-rex 450 heli's, then version 1, then version 2, then all the other versions that came afterwords. Boy did Align take all that to the bank!!

Were owners of the originals the "beta testers"? How about the first owners of the Align 3GX system? WONDERFUL pieces of electronics!! LOL!

Did they make improvements? Absolutely!! And I'm pretty sure DJI has also been making improvements, in product, in reliability, in Customer Service. I recently sent in an Inspire 1 for repair for a local customer who tangled with a tree. The service that I saw was very good, keeping both of us updated with progress, from receiving the item, to quoting cost, to return shipping, AND in a very timely manner!! They quoted 6 weeks initially for repair, I received it back from them in 4 weeks, from the time I shipped it to them. Much quicker than I expected...

Now I missed IRCHA this year (busy days this fall), and only made it on Sat last year. I missed the Align presence that year, other than the Dealers of course, but I'm pretty sure there were DJI Dealers on site this year, were they not? Are you complaining that Align isn't supporting the Hobby? Or are you just picking on the flavor of the day?

http://www.ircha.org/jamboree/2014-event-sponsors

Chris D. Bergen

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12-21-2015 09:57 PM  24 months agoPost 56
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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Nothing Personal Charles, I GREATLY appreciate what you do for IRCHA and the Heli Hobby, we've been friends for a LONG time, and wish I could still attend the Chattanooga funfly on a more frequent basis.

But this pointing fingers at DJI is unnecessary and, IMHO, completely misplaced. It's human nature to try to place blame, just be sure that the blame you're placing is in the right direction...

Chris D. Bergen

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12-21-2015 10:18 PM  24 months agoPost 57
revmix

rrKey Veteran

NJ

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education motto; blame oneself

it's up to the r/c player to know stuff

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12-21-2015 10:41 PM  24 months agoPost 58
datduong2000

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Santa Clara, CA

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RC Helicopter existed since the 70s and there were no problem. There were no close call issue with real flying aircraft until the f***ing knock off quadcopters from china start flooding the sky. People get them because their cheaper than RC Heli and fly their quadcopter everywhere because they are smaller than model RC helicopter.

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12-21-2015 10:46 PM  24 months agoPost 59
revmix

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NJ

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Remote Control

blame the drone addiction

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12-22-2015 12:03 AM  24 months agoPost 60
TMoore

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Cookeville, TN

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How can you compare the modern stabilized multirotor era to Schluter, Heim and others? Comparing the pioneers of our hobby to now is a non sequitur. The old machines had to be flown, you had to have flying skills and building skills. We were all learning at a frantic pace back then.

Modern aerial appliances are more akin to video games, you buy them, you throw them in the air and they fly with no input. I agree with Charles, all the early adopters of the DJI stuff were beta testers of the highest order enduring multiple software revs, multiple crashes that paved the way for the current situation. The thing about the pioneers is that the likes of Schluter, Heim, Kalt, Hirobo and others never left the modeling community. They hung in there with modelers, promoting, participating and selling to modelers. DJI doesn't care about the modeler, they're following the money. They've proven that. DJI, owns the mess we're in right now, period. They caused a lot of this by designing machines that require no flying skills and then failed to train their customer in the proper use of the technology knowing full well what the impact would be on the modeling community at large.

If we think this drone crap is bad now, wait until flying cars are perfected.

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HelicopterMain Discussion › Why aren't any hobby manufactures doing anything about drone registration?
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