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HelicopterMain Discussion › Why aren't any hobby manufactures doing anything about drone registration?
12-20-2015 08:58 PM  24 months agoPost 21
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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Y'all aren't getting this at all. Everything I wrote made sense if you know how to read and can understand English.

The thing you're not seeing is the fact that before the aerial appliances came on the scene we had RTF's for years in a variety of categories, we had ARTF's in a variety of categories. Those RTF's and ARTF's all required flying skills which takes time to learn. GPS driven technology has to be assimilated over time, you won't be able assimilate it over just a few years and that is the key event that hasn't happened here, i.e. the time factor. We've never had models that you could buy, charge for a short period of time and then could for almost 99% of the flight not have to be flown by an operator with any appreciable skills. We've never had models available to the General Public that can be flown out past LOS at altitudes over thousands of feet at a radius of many thousands of feet away from the operator out of the box. Stabilized Aerial appliances are fine in an experienced modelers hands because we know what kind of failure potential there is and we know what can happen if they are not flown safely in a prudent manner because we learned the craft over a period of time. If you don't understand the level of ignorance out there look at the sheer proliferation of review videos on every type of stabilized aerial appliance on YouTube and you'll see for yourself the various skill sets involved.
DJI isn't at fault, idiot users are. Now did DJI enable that? Sure, but Oldmobile enabled kids to street race with the invention of the Muscle car. Doesn't mean the company takes the blame. At some point we need to hold INDIVIDUALS accountable.
"At some point we need to hold INDIVIDUALS accountable." Really??? How do you hold individuals accountable? What's your method for doing that? Is registration of a group of modelers that aren't the problem your answer? If a dumbass takes down a commercial airplane how is holding them accountable going to change things? How will you find them? Just how accountable will they be? Will you kill their first born in retribution? Execute them via lethal injection for genocide?

The answer has to come from the manufacturer and it has to be their responsibility. Look at the latest turn of events. DJI announced they were enabling geofencing on all of their Phantoms. They did this months ago; they locked the machines out of National Park overflights, airports and other locations. Then later they announced that you can opt out of their geofencing restrictions by registering with a CC. Why did they do that? Was it competitive pressure because the other manufacturers were not using geofencing? http://www.dji.com/newsroom/news/dji-fly-safe-system

There's more: http://forum.dji.com/thread-35619-1-1.html

Bottom line: Who's responsibility is it to educate the General Public? Is it ours? Who does it?

BestBuy was even offering a deal that if you purchased a Drone, they would give you a free AMA membership. That's as far as I've seen anyone try in terms of getting folks that buy this stuff involved with an organization that might be able to temper their enthusiasm for the sport and perhaps slow them down before something stupid happens. I have to pay for my AMA memberships. I don't know about the rest of you but I have two more years left on my AMA membership, if I've got to register with the FAA I'm going to have to seriously rethink why I'm a member in the first place because a simple balloon rider on my insurance takes care of the added insurance that AMA provides.

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12-20-2015 09:16 PM  24 months agoPost 22
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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For the record, I don't support registration. Not sure how you got that. I've said it before that the nefarious and ignorant types won't register. Registration will not be effective.

There are other ways to deal with this issue - if there's a drone where it shouldn't be, jam it, follow the signal to the operator, throw the book at them. Deal with it on individual level. Negligent operation.

Then, if somehow someone does make an airliner crash...which is as unlikely as a bird strike doing so, BTW. But should it happen:
Execute them via lethal injection
Yup. For mass murder. Actions have consequences. Freedom comes with responsibility at the individual level.

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12-20-2015 09:25 PM  24 months agoPost 23
LaDon

rrVeteran

Fort Dodge .Ia

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How would they find them? Are you serious? Well let's start off with the same way they find murderers rappers and all other law breakers. Investigation. I don't know what you fly but how about if someone breaks a rule or kill somebody with the same heli you fly and the manufacturer has to quit making it? Should they have too? Your argue end makes absolutely no sense. If that was the case we wouldn't have anything. There is no mechanical device out there that is going to do anything without human intervention of some sort. It is still up to ppl to use it right.

Team Jr

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12-20-2015 09:36 PM  24 months agoPost 24
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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There is no mechanical device out there that is going to do anything without human intervention of some sort. It is still up to ppl to use it right.
+1

ANYTHING can be misused. Holding individuals accountable is the answer. Otherwise our right to use ANYTHING responsibly will constantly be at risk.

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12-21-2015 12:23 AM  24 months agoPost 25
LaDon

rrVeteran

Fort Dodge .Ia

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Exactly and that is why we are in this mess

Team Jr

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12-21-2015 02:30 AM  24 months agoPost 26
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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ANYTHING can be misused. Holding individuals accountable is the answer. Otherwise our right to use ANYTHING responsibly will constantly be at risk.
Won't work. Holding someone accountable will do what exactly? If someone takes out an airplane because their aerial appliance is beyond LOS the chance of finding them could be almost impossible. People get shot all the time, what happens when they get caught? They don't always go to jail and when they do it isn't always for the appropriate length of time based on the crime. We can keep going round and round on this and it won't change anything. The answer is to get DJI and others to tie registration into the ability to fly the machine. You don't register, the machine doesn't fly. It's called stop codes and release codes. Industry uses this technology all the time to force deadbeat owners to pay for their machines in a timely fashion.

When have any of us seen a device in person that can force an aerial appliance to RTH? Raise your hands. I haven't and AFAIK such a device is not in widespread use anywhere. Who makes a scanner that can pickup the RC part of a P3 and triangulate its position to the operator? Where can I buy such a device that will find the operator every time? Is law enforcement going to be equipped with this technology? In short, until the tech is in widespread use the only real way to control access is through the manufacturers ability to communicate with the devices they manufactured.

In case y'all don't know, a PIII (Phantom III) constantly phones home. Every time it boots up and locks on to the GPS Sats the system connects to the DJI servers and requests an update. I've seen it over and over again. In some cases it won't let the model fly until the updates are downloaded and installed. If the machine is constantly updating and it does, DJI can lock it out until further information is obtained and verified. Law enforcement can't do that. The Feds can't do that. If DJI wanted to they can also access the selfie camera and see the operator using the aerial appliance. They may say they can't but the technology is there to do it.

The AMA has no control over this technology and neither do the Feds. Registration won't help the problem. Personal accountability is useless in the face of this type of tech. We're not talking about hitting someone with a machine at an event, we're talking about something that takes out a full size aircraft from two miles away. At an event we all know who is flying the machines, they are right in front of you. It's almost impossible to track down someone sitting in a car or on a rooftop or inside a building that is flying a PIII well beyond LOS. This will be a completely new level of forensics for law enforcement to have to deal with and it has nothing to do with modeling.

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12-21-2015 02:48 AM  24 months agoPost 27
LaDon

rrVeteran

Fort Dodge .Ia

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Oh yeah right DJI can lock it out and I am sure there is not one person smart enough in this world to make it work again. There are ppl that can fix it in a heartbeat.

Team Jr

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12-21-2015 02:52 AM  24 months agoPost 28
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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Thing I don't get is, these things are about as unlikely to take down an airliner as a bird. It's extremely rare that a bird does more than secondary damage and would require a flock to bring one down. Has the media/FAA intentionally overstated the threat in order to enact this? The list of invitees for the FAA talks is just bizarre. Is there crony crap with Amazon going on? There just seem to be so many strange motivations that we're all spinning in circles. I don't even know where to begin with trying to discover who's in charge and the ultimate plan. FAA HAS to know that registration isn't the answer to stop drones flying over airports or strapping bombs. RIGHT? Are they that stupid? It's like the gun control agenda, IMO, it's not about the guns it's about the control.

I've got a pretty active imagination, so it could just be another one of my tin foil hat moments going on. So please please feel free to shoot down my argument because I don't like when I get a bad hunch and am in a state of confusion. I get a hunch and it sticks with me until I can prove it wrong.

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12-21-2015 02:56 AM  24 months agoPost 29
jbjones

rrVeteran

Columbus, Mississippi

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TMoore ...In case y'all don't know, a PIII (Phantom III) constantly phones home. Every time it boots up and locks on to the GPS Sats the system connects to the DJI servers and requests an update. I've seen it over and over again.
Really? How is it doing this? Do you have any source link to how you acquired this info?

I mean, GPS and network data are two totally different things. How is this device connecting to "DJI Servers", over what network interface, and who is paying for the bandwidth?

Doesn't seem plausible to me. Unless DJI owners are paying some sort of subscription fee, or monthly fee..Celluar network, etc, or something. I honestly don't know; I don't own a DJI, nor know anyone that does.

-JB

J. B. Jones

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12-21-2015 03:22 AM  24 months agoPost 30
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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Really? How is it doing this? Do you have any source link to how you acquired this info?
I mean, GPS and network data are two totally different things. How is this device connecting to "DJI Servers", over what network interface, and who is paying for the bandwidth?
Doesn't seem plausible to me. Unless DJI owners are paying some sort of subscription fee, or monthly fee..Celluar network, etc, or something. I honestly don't know; I don't own a DJI, nor know anyone that does.
Rather than make me prove my statements why don't you get some experience of your own and find out if I'm right. I've got a good bit of flight time on a PIII and I know what it does. I've seen it first hand on bootup using a Galaxy S6 on Verizon's network sit there and prompt you to update the firmware. This isn't a courtroom and I don't have to prove my statements to you or anyone else. We're having a conversation; you can believe me or not. I know what I've seen the machines do. You can Google this stuff just as well as I can.

http://wiki.dji.com/en/index.php/Phantom_3_Professional

Do a search on the Google Play Store and download DJI Go and look at the list of the things that the App can access and tell me that DJI doesn't have access to just about everything that's on our phone.

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12-21-2015 03:32 AM  24 months agoPost 31
jbjones

rrVeteran

Columbus, Mississippi

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TMoore : Rather than make me prove my statements why don't you get some experience of your own and find out if I'm right.
Just got through saying that I don't own one or know anyone that does. Gee whiz man.
.. I've seen it first hand on bootup using a Galaxy S6 on Verizon's network ..
Ok, that answers my question. There's your network interface. Thanks.
This isn't a courtroom and I don't have to prove my statements to you or anyone else. We're having a conversation; you can believe me or not. I know what I've seen the machines do. You can Google this stuff just as well as I can.
Ha. Once again, you prove why you have a star next to your name. Take a breath, chill out. You don't have to be Number One every second of the day.

Cheers.

-JB

J. B. Jones

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12-21-2015 03:34 AM  24 months agoPost 32
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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Really? How is it doing this? Do you have any source link to how you acquired this info?
Then change the tone of your question to one that doesn't challenge the veracity of someones statements.

On the DJI Go app here are the list things it accesses:

Device & app history
Identity
Location
Phone
Photos/Media/Files
Camera
Microphone
Wi-Fi connection information
Bluetooth connection information
Device ID & Call information

That's pretty extensive.

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12-21-2015 03:36 AM  24 months agoPost 33
drdot

rrElite Veteran

So. California, Orange County.

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Fwiw..

SO...because I have hands.....I could steal something...Guess we should register everyones' hands...
Stupid...Yes...Would some government idiot agree with it...certainly.
I am fightiing this on principle...This will not stop one single incident with "drones" from happening.....Look at the TFR regulations...How many people even know about them, let alone follow them?
I have no doubt that "drones" can and will cause serious injury...or that they will be used by terrorists....Is this awful? Yes.

Is it my fault?...Absolutely not.

John.

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12-21-2015 03:37 AM  24 months agoPost 34
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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The tension is so high this week.

Confusion. Anger. Bewilderment. I hope this all blows over. Change usually does this. And it usually sucks, too.

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12-21-2015 03:38 AM  24 months agoPost 35
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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Is it my fault?...Absolutely not.
But will you pay the price?

Absolutely.

Registration will fail. The FAA will appeal for more control which will be granted. Downward spiral.

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12-21-2015 03:42 AM  24 months agoPost 36
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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12-21-2015 03:47 AM  24 months agoPost 37
jbjones

rrVeteran

Columbus, Mississippi

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TMoore: Then change the tone of your question to one that doesn't challenge the veracity of someones statements.
Damn, Really? You just accused me of "cherry-picking" in a comment a few months ago, now you're going to do the exact same shiat to me. Didn't you notice, in all of your wisdom, where I stated "I honestly don't know" in my post?
On the DJI Go app here are the list things it accesses:
How many times to I have to state that I don't own one of these creatures, and I REALLY DON'T FRIGGING KNOW!!

Enough, I'm done with you, troll.

I'm out, ya'll have fun with your FAA threads. Geez...

-JB

J. B. Jones

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12-21-2015 03:51 AM  24 months agoPost 38
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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Ha. Once again, you prove why you have a star next to your name. Take a breath, chill out. You don't have to be Number One every second of the day.
You're the one that started that Number One jazz, not me. I don't care. This is one of the reasons that the FAA is winning here. Modelers as a group can't unite and figure out who the frigging enemy is here. It's not us, the FAA in their infinite wisdom has vilified modelers and lumped us into the same group as the one that's causing the problems because they can't tell the difference so they just say f***it and make us all sign up.

When I point out what's going on from my own direct experience someone like you has to challenge it instead of maybe finding out for yourself what's going on. Get some education so you'll understand and then you'll know what's going on and you can make your own informed decision instead of challenging someone that's just having a conversation online.

And you can take that troll jazz with you.

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12-21-2015 03:51 AM  24 months agoPost 39
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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Someone tell me again how none of this is a big deal. Because people are sure bent. I can't remember the last time I saw RR do this big a self feeding frenzy.

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12-21-2015 04:29 AM  24 months agoPost 40
Chris Bergen

rrElite Veteran

cassopolis, MI USA

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Nice rant Terry, but I have to disagree and suggest you put your emotions in check and look at the facts of the matter.

First, while DJI may currently be the biggest seller of multirotors, they were certainly not the first, and they certainly aren't the ONLY game in town. So blaming DJI for the current state of affairs is not only ignorant, it's simply wrong.

Second, the FAA has been actively looking into this "problem" LONG before multirotors were even invented, beginning sometime around 2001, 14 YEARS AGO! So blaming Multirotors for the current state of affairs is also ignorant and wrong.

Third, the HOBBY was warned long ago to be on the lookout for FAA action, but thanks to the many naysayers, trolls, and emoticons out there, it was poo poo'd as tin foil hat imagination, and ignored. Well here we are and now everyone is running around screaming bloody murder.

Fourth, attempting to place blame isn't going to get this issue resolved. Banding together in one large voice is our only recourse, and right now, like it or not, that only voice the HOBBY has is the AMA. Due to how my own business model has changed over the last few years I have let my AMA membership lapse.

I will be renewing tomorrow.

I'm only one, and all of you are only one. But by putting all of our ones together, we may make a loud enough voice to get us at least heard. Will it be enough? Only time will tell. But I do know what WON'T work. Fighting amongst ourselves, trying to place blame, or trying to "fix" something other than the real problem.

We all know that these new regs will do nothing to enhance "safety" in the NAS, simply because the stupid will continue to be stupid. Those disinclined to follow the law will continue to be disinclined to follow the law, no matter how many MORE laws they make.

Just my $.02....

Chris D. Bergen

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HelicopterMain Discussion › Why aren't any hobby manufactures doing anything about drone registration?
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