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HelicopterMain Discussion › Call for Petition: Traditional Modelers - AMA represents drones. It's time WE represent US
12-16-2015 05:13 AM  20 months agoPost 41
Arclight338

Heliman

New Jesey, United States of America

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I totally disagree with "lets keep RC together. There is STILL a very strong anti- heli sentiment in my area. Numerous clubs,prohibit any heli-only pilot to join. 42 miles EACH way to the field is the result. The AMA may have,in the past, "Done good things"- and no, I will not stop my anti-AMA statements.Now,I see no support for the heli community.

The AMA is a a serious cross roads. The hobby as we know it is in decline. There will always be serious modeler's,in helis, scale is strong. However,price a heli kit and accessories from NOTHING,then add the $70 cost of an AMA membership.Then just TRY to join a Flying Club that welcomes new pilots. Compare that to even a top end rft DRONE. All you need is an A/C outlet,read the instructions and you are good to go. Flying- not crashing- right in your own yard.How is this helping the hobby.

Any child with their parents are horrified when told the cost of a decent heli is well over 1000 dollars. Add the learning curve,crashes,lack of fields to fly,club politics,and now the government involvement- when does the fun start.The AMA knows this,they took the advertising money and ran with it.Todays youth dont have the patience to stand next to an old crumugeon and be nursed into flying.Walk before you run is not applicable. RC of any kind was really fascinating years ago-compared to todays technology,its not fostering a youth movement.

The AMA brought a stick to a gun fight. The increase in dues was timed perfectly.Comments were plentiful to the FAA's NPRM. Look at the otherside. The Airline industry,the Airline Pilot Association,International Association of Chiefs of Police as well as the NTSB. The press has been negative toward DRONES- not traditional RC as we know it. The safety issue is real and a present danger.Drone's have been far too close to Commercial and General Aviation. ALPA is absolutely justified to demand something be done.

For all the "education"and "safety" promoted by the AMA- no action occured to show that their plan was working.Hence the result.It is what it is. The AMA failed. We told them so.

Goblin 700,Align: Trex: 250,500,600E,700N Pro,Blitz Avro 90,Outrage 50V2

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12-16-2015 05:13 AM  20 months agoPost 42
Steve Graham

Senior Heliman

Denver, CO

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People are angry and looking for a scapegoat. Blaming the AMA is ignorant of the realities that the AMA has been involved in efforts to protect model aviation from FAA regulation since the ARC way back in 2008 and before. If you think the AMA's embracing FPV and MR's within the programming of the organization's safety code ie within LOS and in every other way beholding to the same rules as any other AMA aircraft in any way contributed to the FAA's ruling you are sadly ignorant of the realities of the workings of the FAA. The FAA was never going to recognize a separate classification of anything that flies by RC in their ruling. Some say the AMA should have distanced themselves from MR and FPV and that is the reason the FAA lumped us all in together. I would suggest that had many of the "traditional" modelers who rail against these new technologies had embraced and brought those willing to operate within the organizations programing into the group we might have had a few more voices in the political fight that we ultimately lost. So many people have engaged in simplistic vilification of any who would enjoy these new technologies that they can not see the simple fact that they are behaving in a highly prejudicial manner much like the old lady that hides behind her curtains and calls the cops whenever she spots movement beyond her little world.

You may not like it but continuing to argue that "we are not them" and "they are the problem" completely misses the point that the FAA does not now, never has and never will recognize the two sides you're trying to create as separate. This whole we need to define drones as not us is a fools errand. We do not get to decide. The legislative bodies have already done that and long ago. So if it feels good to continue in this vein by all means make yourself happy but it will not change reality. We are sUAS which some people call drones. We are also model aviation which the AMA, WE, while not actually writing the exemption in the 2012 reauthorization as many delusionally believe were nevertheless successful in getting some limited definition and protection for the hobby. Since that time the FAA has repeatedly ignored both the spirit and letter of the congressional mandate.

The AMA had robust and qualified representation in the form of Rich Hansen in the recent process. Unfortunately the game was rigged and the AMA knew it going in. They didn't publically admit it but they very well knew their ONLY two options were to be involved and try as best they could to affect the outcome in our favor against all odds OR as some here would suggest stay home and pout because they didn't like the way the thing was set up. I'm confident legal pleas are forthcoming challenging the legality of the FAA's ruling. Given the over dramatic and inaccurate characterization of the problem given by the FAA as justification for bypassing the normal requirements of the administrative procedures act I'm hopeful there may be some chance of repeal. The AMA leadership will pursue those appeals with or without individuals threats of abandoning the organization. They will do it because it is the right thing to do. Hopefully as time goes on more of the membership accusing the AMA of "losing it's way" will reconsider their positions given the great complexity of the challenge facing our organization. Many will continue arguing for protection by division of model aviation into ever smaller segments but I argue that M.O. is a guarantee of failure through continuous decline and shrinkage of the hobby into a state of irrelevance.

One last thing, what the HELL is wrong with increasing revenue for an organization that has spent the last 80 years defending our hobby? A hobby that you may have noticed that is in serious decline even without the hamfisted ministrations of our federal authorities.

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12-16-2015 05:16 AM  20 months agoPost 43
Steve Graham

Senior Heliman

Denver, CO

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And please stop trying to claim a consensus through use of the term "we"

You and others may have given the AMA your opinions. "WE" did no such thing.

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12-16-2015 05:17 AM  20 months agoPost 44
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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The AMA leadership will pursue those appeals
THEN DO IT! So far I've seen more planning communication and positive action here than either AMA site. The silence from AMA is deafening.

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12-16-2015 05:19 AM  20 months agoPost 45
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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And please stop trying to claim a consensus through use of the term "we"
WE - as in the the OP title calling for "Traditional Modelers." I don't care if you are an MR guy or a FPV guy. That isn't a traditional modeler. Look at the thread title. This call isn't for them.

You'll have to excuse me if I ignore your appeal to be inclusive. I feel that approach is what got us here. And many like me do. The argument that the FAA would have swept in on modeling regardless of whether or not there were MR/FPV is tenuous at best. The burden of proof would certainly be on the person presenting it. Then, to state that we should embrace MR/FPV when we operated LOS for DECADES without government intervention and suddenly this is wrought on us is asking too much.

Basically, if you're MR/FPV, this isn't your thread. Start your own petition.
One last thing, what the HELL is wrong with increasing revenue for an organization that has spent the last 80 years defending our hobby?
Nothing...as long as the representation of those who paid that way isn't so adversely affected by conflicted interest.

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12-16-2015 05:25 AM  20 months agoPost 46
Arclight338

Heliman

New Jesey, United States of America

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Steve, we live in a different world.The past is just that.There is no youth growth.Populations have grown,real estate is expensive and with litagation just an accident away a flying field is tough to come by. The insurance provided by the AMA isnt a primary policy. The price of admission is high for many people today. Club politics are very bad.

As far as increasing revenue? Throw the baby out with the bathwater.Drones caused this,Drones will continue to create issues- just due to the lack of skill needed to fly them.Yet the majority of AMA adds are DRONES. The AMA doesnt represent the heli flyer.

Goblin 700,Align: Trex: 250,500,600E,700N Pro,Blitz Avro 90,Outrage 50V2

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12-16-2015 06:46 AM  20 months agoPost 47
aceisback

Senior Heliman

Terre Haute, IN

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After following this blame game over the last few days, it is interesting to see how people want to blame the AMA for not fixing this. I would bet many of the complainers are the same ones who are not AMA members anyway, so why complain. The AMA is not a large enough organization to take on the government when the plan was already decided.

Drones are not the problem, the pilots who choose to fly rogue without joining a club or organization are the problem. This is no different than when helis came on the scene and the plankers said the same thing about helis. Many heli pilots complain about not being welcome at some fields, why do you think that is? Attitude and lack of respect for other pilots is often the case. As a planker, heli, and quad flyer, I have experienced heli and plane pilots who were arrogant and plain dangerous, so yes, they were not welcome to fly with us. If you want the AMA to fight, then they need the support of the RC community as well. In today's economy and decline in RC aircraft interest, the AMA needs to bring in more interest. Drone pilots who join AMA probably have a better chance of becoming responsible pilots by joining clubs and participating with others rather than flying rogue.

At least the AMA did something, the FAA and government is not going to listen to the individuals in the game. If anything, AMA and our hobby as a whole was kicked under the bus by our own government and you can see our politicians are not showing any interest. The politicians are more interested in the supporting the public who know nothing about drones, yet hate them because of what they see and hear from the media. Believe what you want, but I refuse to wear a tin foil hat, or wear a hard hat because I believe the sky is falling, I will do what I have too for the time being so that I can enjoy the hobby. Maybe things will get better. maybe they won't, but I am not going to cry because someone else was not able to fix the issue. The AMA has enough on their plate to deal with right now, so don't expect them to take time out to answer everyone's individual emails and phone calls. They aren't going to throw in the towel just yet. If any individual thinks they can do better, then do it.

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12-16-2015 08:11 AM  20 months agoPost 48
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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government is not going to listen to the individuals in the game
Wrong. If the phones are ringing off the hook by many individuals, and some individuals have petitions with hundreds or thousands of signatures, this is VERY effective. Lobbying is not the only form of representation as this statement would have us believe.

FWIW, I am not calling for anyone to quit AMA. I intend on maintaining my membership. Even if only for the insurance and field/event access while I evaluate what the organization can do for me going into the future. I don't recommend anyone quit until they've proven themselves one way or another. And it's way too early to tell. Heck, it could just be one election away from effective leadership! Don't quit them.

However, I also think they've demonstrated enough incompetency under the current leadership that a few of us taking action an petitioning is the right answer. Just sitting back and letting them handle it isn't cutting the mustard.

FWIW, being an AMA member isn't a popularity contest. You don't have to agree with everything your organization does, and you don't have to leave it when upset with it. Just because I want to operate outside its collective interest doesn't mean I hate the organization. I am however, extremely disappointed in it.

I don't expect the AMA to take my phone call, as you put it. But I DO expect them to communicate to their constituency that is very confused right now. That is not too high an expectation.

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12-16-2015 10:05 AM  20 months agoPost 49
EEngineer

Elite Veteran

TX

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Just watched a documentary....on Pearl Harbor day...

Among the scenes, there was on that showed kids....with their "old timer" FF planes.....with their 4 digit AMA numbers proudly displayed on their wings.

Why on earth would blame be laid on the AMA for these restrictions that ya'll complain about?

WHY?

You people voted for these politicians...and you've reaped what you've sown....it's not the fault of the AMA....but collectively it's ya'lls fault.

That the head of the FAA...Huerta whose only skills lie in generating campaign donations....is made head of the FAA...is the problem.

The fault has NEVER been with the AMA...but with the corruption of the feds...with the complicity of the LIV's.

I would have thought that ya'll could see this.

Guess I'm wrong.

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12-16-2015 01:33 PM  20 months agoPost 50
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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The AMA has been trying to influence the final decision of the FAA in this matter for several years, from the beginning when there were just rumblings that an NPRM was to be issued. They didn't just show up late to the party with lame reasons tainted by their lust for the Drone dollar.

If not for the AMA, Public Law 112-95 section 336 would not exist. It was the AMA who mobilized people to lobby their representatives to write that section into the law. There were several symposiums with the FAA and AMA to let the modeling community air their wants and needs.

The FAA is hanging their hat on the definition of aircraft, pointing out that even 112-95 shares that definition.

In so doing, they are completely ignoring the part of that same law which forbids them from taking this action against MODEL aircraft, which if you read 112-95 section 336 you will find the definition to be in line with AMA's safety code.

The FAA is an example of Government bureaucracy ay its best (worst?). The press has been having a field day with Drone reporting. There is the mistaken impression among the general public that what is called a Drone, is extremely dangerous and obtrusive.

The FAA saw an opportunity to do what it has always wanted to do - own EVERYTHING that flies. They managed to create a Public Safety issue based on Drone reporting. The AMA pointed out quite recently and publicly that the data used by the FAA to establish the "danger" was severely flawed.

The FAA, contrary to what the members of the task force wanted, decided to make registration of just about anything that flies, mandatory. This, under the guise of making the National Airspace "safe."

All the FAA has accomplished at this point is to find a way to create a database which it WILL use in the unlikely event that a manned aircraft is involved in an incident with a Drone. If and when that happens, I would expect the Lawman to begin knocking on the doors of all persons in that database within a reasonable radius, looking for the offender. For the most part, they will find a bunch of law-abiding citizens who weren't involved.

The AMA is NOT the problem here.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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12-16-2015 02:21 PM  20 months agoPost 51
xcellgasman101

Elite Veteran

WOODWARD, OKLA....

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The AMA is NOT the problem here.
Correct, We need to be slow to anger, There is a lot to be done in the next few weeks, and months, Let us take a breath, and Wooo-Sawwww, Cant you just feel the love in the room? XGM/VGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com

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12-16-2015 03:53 PM  20 months agoPost 52
Steve Graham

Senior Heliman

Denver, CO

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I appreciate everyones voice. At the same time I understand that we will likely never reach clear consensus because your view and desired response to these difficult questions boils down to deeply held convictions about how we should govern in a society of widely diverse people.

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12-16-2015 04:22 PM  20 months agoPost 53
helo_chris

Veteran

goodlettsville, tn

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I for one am not blaming the AMA for allowing to happen, I know better than that. My problem with the AMA is how they approached it, and they fact that they really dont have any power to do anything. Which is exactly why I said I likely will not renew my membership. What purpose do they serve if they have no power to influence anything in a positive way. And yes they have done some great things for the hobby in the past. But again, I think they have abandoned being a lobby for our "special interest" for the sake of the toy market that could potentially generate more revenue. More simply put, they no longer represent my interests. So I have no use for them.

"There is a fine line between cutting edge and bleeding edge.."

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12-16-2015 04:40 PM  20 months agoPost 54
eddiscus

Elite Veteran

Dumont, NJ-USA

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If this is truly representative of the costs to implement this registration nonsense I feel we need to reconsider who we currently have sitting in government positions. I think this kind of money would be much better spent on care for our Veterans than on a half ass poorly planned registration process.

"Given the time to register aircraft under the paper-based system and the projected number of sUAS aircraft, the FAA estimates the cost to the government and non-modelers would be about $383 million. Due to the increase in sUAS aircraft used by hobbyists to date and the expected rapid increase, the FAA has decided that both modelers and non-modelers need to register their aircraft and have developed this IFR to provide a less costly, stream-lined alternative for registering. The estimated cost of this IFR is about $56 million. The resulting cost savings to the society from this IFR equals the cost of the baseline policy ($383 million)minus the cost of this IFR ($56 million), or about $327 million ($259 million in present value at a 7 percent discount rate). These cost savings are the net quantified benefits of this IFR."

http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/med...20-AK82_RIA.pdf

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12-16-2015 05:26 PM  20 months agoPost 55
icanfly

Elite Veteran

ontario

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hmm,
and they are some of the dumbest ever.
and "the hobby is in decline"

it has become a numbers thing now, super more numbers of "drone" multi sales than anything else, the dumber they come the more they are drone to drones and the more likely to spoil things for everyone else who has the brain to know what not to do to jeopardize the existing rc hobby. Then you have saboteurs who know to pull things down with only a few rife acts, the FAA appears to want to levy a strict and militant stand on abuse in such a way to send chills down the spines of the dumb one's who need a hard law to sedate them. Then you put the quad in the hands of a total retard and they make a mistake and the media gets hold of it and the faa justifies the hard line even more, it's all a downward spiral but these toys of multi rotor can bring on a different level of harassment from the air, not something a real hobby flyer partook in for the very most part.

all the laws in the world didn't stop someone from breaking them. Rc heli flyers were on the low key while multis now tagged as "drones" are high visibility with the public due to the media and military use elsewhere, so what's a gov to do. Hypothetically 100,million "drones sold by 2020, 200.000 rc helis sold by the same time so a law must come into effect to protect the public, who does the law apply to and who is the accidental victim?

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12-16-2015 05:39 PM  20 months agoPost 56
HeimD

Veteran

the great southwest

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You people voted for these politicians
Oh, really? You know how I or anyone else voted in regard to these clowns being in office? What about Mr. FAA Huerta? He's not even in an elected position.

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12-16-2015 05:42 PM  20 months agoPost 57
HeimD

Veteran

the great southwest

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Rc heli flyers were on the low key while multis now tagged as "drones" are high visibility with the public due to the media and military use elsewhere
Remotely piloted multi-rotors are in "high visibility" use with the military? Haven't seen too much of that.

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12-16-2015 06:58 PM  20 months agoPost 58
whirlyspud

Key Veteran

USA

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If MR is bad, can I still build a Chinook? I have news for you. AMA was started by AIRPLANE pilots. Claiming Helicopters paved, or that only helicopters and planes are "traditional" is a flaming pile of doo doo.

Mike

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12-16-2015 07:15 PM  20 months agoPost 59
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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Well guys. You're on your own. I counted the number of folks who explicitly stated they support this. Six. And much more opposition to this idea. I'm not one to rock the boat that hard. Not for six signatures on a petition.

SO, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. If you supported this idea, great, now go get on the phone with your local representative and bark. I'm not going to lead a charge against the will of many of my fellow modelers. Not for six signatures on a petition. I'd be out of my mind.

I petitioned my rep as an individual already. Now it's your turn.

I guess I thought people would see it my way. Some do. Many don't.

SO, AGAIN, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. No one's coming to the rescue, guys. Get on the phone.

Over and out.

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