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HelicopterMain Discussion › ESC's And EMI, How Much EMI Do They Really Emit?
11-21-2015 04:27 PM  24 months agoPost 1
icanfly

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ontario

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not sure if this should go in an electronics forum so here goes.

As of discovering how other guys have dealt with electro magnetic interference from ESC's and motors it has come to my attention that the use of a single satelite rx on a heli might be more susceptible to the effects of emi. A recent finding also may help in methods of shielding other than a sheet of aluminum foil covering the sat.

This is also a question where the answers may provide insight on the effects of interference in close proximity to lipos and bl motors.

Anyone have any test results of emi radiation of esc's, lipos, and bl motors?

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11-21-2015 07:02 PM  24 months agoPost 2
jason46

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MI

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In an old 450 I mounted a spektrum receiver forward on the side frame without thinking about it being within a few millimeters of the motor, I was worried about it but never had an issue.

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11-21-2015 10:20 PM  24 months agoPost 3
Heli Fanatix

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Fountain Valley, CA

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EMI could come from everything you mention plus servos and the flying environment. That is why range checks are so important. There are units from Spektrum that test how good is your signal strength throughout your flight. Other TX manufacturer may use other forms of data logging such as v bar, you can view to see if any data packets have been lost.

That is why it's best to use the tyroid suppression rings on any leads coming your ESC. It reduces the "noise". It's always best to keep any type of hi voltage lines away from SAT's. Depending on your model size ... 1 SAT for 450 and smaller and 2 SAT for 500 and bigger. Position the wires so they are expose and not behind CF. One SAT's antenna going left to right and one going front to back.

Also, if you have a TX with foldable antenna tip. Make sure you fold it so it's left and right. Will help radiate the signal to give you full diversity when flying a left to right flight path.

All these factors add up to help maintain control.

- Scott

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11-22-2015 09:16 AM  24 months agoPost 4
EEngineer

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TX

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"it has come to my attention that the use of a single satelite rx on a heli might be more susceptible"

Prove it using test equipment...LOL

Logo 600SXs, 800XX, TDR IIs

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11-22-2015 01:47 PM  24 months agoPost 5
icanfly

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ontario

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Prove it using test equipment...LOL
that's the point, is there no physical testing of the components mentioned regarding emi and or emf? Brushless motors could have some magnetic field distortion of the rx signal paths, lipos would not be "see through" or "invisible" to signal paths, cf frame parts are insulating and the key there would be parts that are physically the same length/width dimensions as a 2.4g wave length, that would cause signal weakness and or cancellation. An esc would have a switching frequency of the fets but they would have to operate in the same frequencies of 2.4g to affect the rx signals. At least this is how I understand things of this nature, correct me where-ever you know the info is not accurate.

I suppose a good test would be with a spooled up heli, no blades, and with a sat fastened to a lipo, then moved to beside the motor where it can be in direct view of the tx and then turned to become shadowed by the motor/lipo/etc, then put the sat on the esc top then underside with the same range tests.

A couple of years ago I picked up a 700 that was flown with one frame mounted satellite off a 3gx and about the same time there was a vid of a guy with a Goblin 700 who lost signal and the heli went into some hydro wires only to go up in a flash of spark and flames, his heli was about a hundred feet from him when signal was lost.

EEngineer, what tools would be needed to test e radiation from those devices?

there was a short time my eyes were sensitive enough to observe a darkened eminence surrounding a lipo in operation much like that of a magnet's gravitational field, not like a cloud but a cancellation or deflection of photo electric particles passing near the lipo in use, very interesting. You know the common household drill gives off electro magnetic radiation, thought to cause cancer btw, so do hydro wires, and certain crystals also are radio active.

just found this link but no product description or example, http://www.earthcalm.ca/ interesting info there.

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11-22-2015 03:07 PM  24 months agoPost 6
ICUR1-2

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Ottawa, Ontario

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There are no worries any more of emi affecting your rx unless your still using FM and brushed motors with really old brushed servo motors.

that being said
you should divide your power system into 2 categories low amp/volt and high amp/volt
and do your best to keep them apart when building.

spending time, paying attention

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11-22-2015 07:34 PM  24 months agoPost 7
Heli Fanatix

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Fountain Valley, CA

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icanfly,

If you follow the guidelines the manufacturers and everyone has suggested while using the modern hardware .... You will be just fine. No sense on worrying about something every time you see it else where. Focus on your technique upon proven methods.

Even the 3GX don't have the best hardware, that why it's recommended a separate RX are used with the 3GX. It's hardware are a hit or miss, but when you use a questionable hardware with improper setup, gonna be not fun.

We don't know how that crispy Goblin 700 was setup. Plus, powerlines radiate a lot of interference as well representing a physical obstical. Never the less, if he had lost signal ... His fail safe should of kicks in and if no obstruction, would of been a different outcome.

I can see you like to tinker, Projects and experiment but "I feel" you should not stress too much on certain areas and follow guidelines and you will be fine. You can buy the module from Spektrum, orient the SAT in different places / position and test the strength of your signal. It's very tough without proper test equipment and expertist. Simple as that ... Otherwise we are going in circles.

Focus more effort on your flying versus hypotheticals, conclusions and theories....

BTW
how are your pirouetting flips working out? Are you still practicing on your 450?

- Scott

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11-22-2015 10:53 PM  24 months agoPost 8
icanfly

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ontario

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hey thanks for asking about the piro flips and recommending flight technique above all else right now. The piros in the sim are connecting because I'm able to follow the nose/tail through the piro better. I began to segregate each quarter orientation of the full flip and went back to half piro loops which became easier as a result. It's a matter of catching the heli in it's inverted and rsu moment to add collective and at no other time or the heli will wander. A good practice I did the last time in the sim was stationary flips in all orientations, then it's a matter of going back and forth through each flip orientation and redirecting the heli into another orientation nose in/left whatever. A more rehearsed routine is what I aim for. Most of the time I've been messing with technical details on my lone 450 atm, a 3d beater one needs to be made up to start going crazy and I think a 360 would be a better platform for 3d to mess around, 450's cheap to fix however.

regarding the technical stuff, my 550 Shuttle retro Hirobo with Ar7200BX with 90° horizontal antennas and solo satellite at 45° got a range test of 60 paces or twice as far as my 450 at 30 paces/90ft with a single rx. Range isn't so much a problem as is signal blocking and 2.4 signal absorption by things as simple as tree leaves of a circumference about 4.5 inches, flying behind trees and other solid objects. can you fly your heli behind something and faithfully trust it will come out the other end without shutting down and or off it's path?

My present day hobby regarding all things rc heli have now crossed into all electronics. I once considered placement of a satellite in front of the swash plate on top and just behind the lipo on a 450, the rx is at the other frame end on the base plate where the boom struts fasten to the frame. A week and a half ago a single gyro wire coating had been rubbed to the internal copper and ground to the cf frame, the 450 crashed while it was hovered 10 ft up and 20ft in front of me (since fixed with new gyro connections and with no contact with the cf, gyro locked the tail signal in full left position).
It's very tough without proper test equipment and expertist
the matter of mechanical shielding has come of interest recently

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11-22-2015 11:28 PM  24 months agoPost 9
Heli Fanatix

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Fountain Valley, CA

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That is good your piroeutting flip is coming along ... It's not too hard if you don't over think it. Break it down, procede with a plan and refrain from over thinking. 550 is the best size for 3D (we had discuss this already) but it's your call. Effort vs Cost

Regarding your 450 SAT placement in front of swashplate... That's a high traffic area. I would put it ontop of the tail boom case and protect all points of contact. Issues you had should be top priority to avoiding when setting up.

Good experience comes from bad experiences. I'm sure you won't do that again!

- Scott

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11-23-2015 04:55 AM  24 months agoPost 10
icanfly

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ontario

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you won't do that again!
lol.

from what I've researched a year or more ago emf radiation detection devices start about 800/900 bucks and go up to $12/14k for a little foot square by 3 or 4in tall box or rack mount or case loaded unit and wand or similar set up. Maybe some old cathode ray testing equipment might work, or modern electricians testers could give a small indication of emf presence. Anyone still fixing cathode ray tv sets? there's a lark.

You know hf after I posted the former reply I went to the sim and actually started to piroflip travel while also changing piro direction mid air. The hover flipping and switching piro direction in all orientations really helps. Then threw some tic tocs in between and the heli would look like it was dancing in mid air, fun, just had to be quick to catch rsu from usd before adding corrections. Found a weak usd orientation sector to work on and break down, thanks for asking. Yeah the 450 is kind of small but a little disposable, a 550 I know would be more dramatic and smoother to 3d, give it a bit of time and an up to date 500 to 600 will be in my hands, no rush.

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11-23-2015 07:48 AM  24 months agoPost 11
Heli Fanatix

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Fountain Valley, CA

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I find it really puzzling that you would think of investing few hundreds in equipment that is not detrimental vs investing in a 550 for your 3D endeavours. I am too like you but focus my priorities elsewhere and leave the technological aspects to the true engineers. I don't think there is enough issues with EMI/EMF issues to warrant an in depth investigation.

The real culprits are:
- wire routing that leads to chaffing, shorting and breaking
- CF edges not sanded down
- bad soldering techniques
- static build up
- pinion to main gear mesh
- one way bearing lubrications
- fbl and esc gov setup/tunning

Addressing these issues will far out weight trying to pinpoint your EMI source.

Regarding pirouetting techniques:
It's always good to switch rudder direction at any quadrant. Will let you transition into any other maneuver seamlessly. That is what I have focused my efforts on. Being able to pirouette flip in either directions with nose away, towards, left and right in both directions. Once I'm fully proficient, I would continue with the disc at 45 degrees angles and at knife edge. Than when you pump the collective, you can start moving around while pirouetting and if you took the time to learn traveling pirouettes ... you can do figure 8's and circles with reversals within. You can do it fast or slow by knowing how to load and unloading the disk. Some motors prefer to have a load to produce more torque to create that gravity defying Tareq style of flight.

I wouldn't be able to pull all these maneuvers with a tiny 450, it was tough even with the 500. You need good power to weight ratio, good visibility, disc loading and the gyroscopic inertia of 550mm disc or better.

Maybe we could have this conversation again in the future when you are flying 700 class heli's. Your views will be different once you have wean yourself from the smaller heli's.

either way, good luck on your quest

- Scott

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11-23-2015 03:01 PM  24 months agoPost 12
icanfly

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ontario

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gyroscopic inertia
absolutely understood, only when the smaller helis reach high rpms do they begin to exhibit the characteristics of a larger one though with shortened lifespan of bearings and associated moving parts.

I practice in the sim with a 700 fbl only.

My back yard mini sessions are full pf piro travel and switching piro direction anywhere in the limited space. Nose out circuits around a tree within the confined area include hurricane type disc attitude, one I'd like to continue to actual hurricanes, funnels and piro-ing anywhere in the circle. At one time last spring my 450 caught the grass and tumbled while later my 300 came within an inch maybe even grazing the grass as it hurled disc vertical aka knife edge to the ground like a boomerang at very low altitude, racy tenacious stuff not to mind many other objects to fly within mere centimeters from. One photo take from vid of a 450 with 250mm blades shows it to come within an inch of a garden grass roller beside the central tree. At many places I could fly there's an abundance of trees with branches beginning 6 to 10ft up, flying them would be as if in a pylon course. Good estimations of time speed and distance are stressed, quite exhilarating to test ones sense of awareness, hyper awareness that is.

The emf/emi test equipment isn't something I can afford yet and is part of a pursuit to a higher understanding of radiology and magnetism in elements. Someone recently gave me a particular crystal which is radioactive in larger forms and it's re-ignited my interest in all things regarding light, electromagnetism, electricity, and elements.

There was a time I was at a corporate auction and a bidder came with a hand held device that scanned metal items of sale for alloy content before they were bid on. The scanner cost $25k.

Lastly, to minimize costs it is best to test theories and practices in advance of hiring professionals to verify and or discount reprove and or disprove ones own experiments and or inventions before pursuing further actions like investing many dollars in what could end up a big pipe dream. This I was told by a qualified pseudo engineer, a person who makes molds for engineered products and quality controls other engineers projects but lacks the certificate to work professionally as an engineer.

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11-23-2015 08:01 PM  24 months agoPost 13
Ronald Thomas

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Gainesville, Fl, USA

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You can really tell when winter hits

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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11-23-2015 08:40 PM  24 months agoPost 14
ssmith512

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Indianapolis, IN USA

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ESC's And EMI, How Much EMI Do They Really Emit?
A BUNCH!!

Am I not the only one that wears a lead lined helmet at the flying field? This hobby is dangerous and should be treated with respect!!

Steve

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11-23-2015 09:56 PM  24 months agoPost 15
ICUR1-2

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Ottawa, Ontario

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you should be using a led lined cup ! especially when plugging in a 12s system. if you let the arc near your boys they may short

spending time, paying attention

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11-24-2015 09:16 AM  24 months agoPost 16
EEngineer

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TX

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there no physical testing of the components mentioned regarding emi and or emf
Are you crazy?

By falsely claiming that there is no testing??????

Get an O-scope....LOL

Logo 600SXs, 800XX, TDR IIs

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11-24-2015 09:21 AM  24 months agoPost 17
EEngineer

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TX

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there no physical testing of the components mentioned regarding emi and or emf
You aren't "qualified" to determine what test equipment should be used to determine any RF effects....

Why do you persist with such nonsense?

Logo 600SXs, 800XX, TDR IIs

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11-24-2015 09:29 AM  24 months agoPost 18
EEngineer

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TX

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An esc would have a switching frequency of the fets but they would have to operate in the same frequencies of 2.4g to affect the rx signals
Now how would such electrical interference affect one's MEMS gyro's?

Can't you understand why Kon ESCs need the "toroid" cables to attenuate SBEC signals that could interfere with the proper operation of your FBL controller?

Ican, you always bring this up.....yearly....and this subject has been discussed....year after year after year.

Don't you ever learn?

Cheers

Logo 600SXs, 800XX, TDR IIs

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11-24-2015 01:11 PM  24 months agoPost 19
icanfly

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ontario

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sure, but the whole premise is whether 2.4g signals are completely blocked by lipos, motor, and or esc's in operation. It is simple enough to put a rx behind those things while the heli is run without blades and range checked. A more thorough test of the emf/emi effects can be understood more closely with equipment. Einstein proved light bends, so probably do 2.4g signals, it's absorption that would be a problem as in putting a rx behind a cf canopy, or in close proximity to a large motor, large battery, this kind of thing.

EE, no one has any graphs or readings or computer scans posted of the matters in question, only of flux lines within say a motor for instance.

It's a curios part of the hobby.

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11-26-2015 09:23 AM  24 months agoPost 20
EEngineer

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TX

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You're so full of malarkey.

Are you retarded?

Just have to ask.

Logo 600SXs, 800XX, TDR IIs

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