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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersEngines › Is Auto Tune Going to Come to Model Helicopters?
10-20-2015 02:23 AM  26 months agoPost 21
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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Possibly. We'll be doing more testing and training with the customer tomorrow, we'll see if he'll let us get some video.

Chris D. Bergen

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10-20-2015 05:00 AM  26 months agoPost 22
flysti06

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lebanon nj usa

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Well said Chris

Team pilot KBDD Team pilot S&W Fuel, Representative for Lynx, Scorpion and Tesla. ,Protos 700 max V2

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10-21-2015 03:12 AM  26 months agoPost 23
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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Didn't do much flying today....

Apparently the tuned pipes don't play well with the EFI system. Couldn't get the tuning dialed in. Put the stock cans back on, worked perfectly.... Well, that's how we learn...

But, DAMN they look good!

Chris D. Bergen

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10-21-2015 03:02 PM  26 months agoPost 24
xcellgasman101

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WOODWARD, OKLA....

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But, DAMN they look good!
Yes they did!!!! XGM/VGM

John Crotts
www.soonerhelicamproductions.com

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10-21-2015 03:37 PM  26 months agoPost 25
wjvail

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Meridian, Mississippi

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Chris - That thing is frickin awesome. That's what I'm talking about! Lets see some innovation in the gasser market! Out of curiosity, why put the jugs North/South instead of East/West?

Unlucky the EFI didn't work well with the pipes. I suppose it doesn't like the reverse flow of fuel/air well tuned pipes will provide.?.? A self tuning system for piped motors would be godsend. The ability of the carburetor and engine to adjust to the changes in fuel requirements as the engine comes "on" the pipe would be something we have been looking for for decades.

I will confess I don't own a gas helicopter. While I have looked at them in the past, there seems to be a lot of resistance to change in this sector of helicoptering. I started this thread wondering if others would see a really exciting opportunity or if it would be dead panned. Walbro has developed a self tuning carburetor. I find that pretty exciting.

They make some really interesting small twins now. The opportunity to have a really well balanced 30cc twin running an auto tune carb would be dam cool. The proposition of near zero vibration and no tuning might get me off the couch. I can envision two jugs sticking out the sides like a BMW Boxer motorcycle.

There must be room for innovation in the gas market. Has anyone tried a new power-plant in the last 20 years?

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...HP_8500RPM.html

"Well, Nothing bad can happen now."

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10-21-2015 05:57 PM  26 months agoPost 26
RM3

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Killeen, Texas - USA

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I think the problem with these "Auto tune" systems is that they dont have enough sensing data coming from the engine to really adjust properly. Just look at EFI systems for modern cars and those new systems that Summit racing sells that claim to be "self programming". they use multiple sensors to determine what the optimal fuel to air mix and ignition timing should be. sensors like air temp and mass, throttle position, crank position, exhaust O2 emissions and engine temps. You need all of that to get the most power from an engine. All this information changes what your ignition and fuel mix should be. When you add a tuned pipe, nothing is linear as far as tuning goes, then have a change in outside temps and the tuned rpm of the pipes changes, hell your header gets hot enough and the tuned rpm changes...your EFI system must be programmed to know that and by how much.

Thats why Tuned Pipes can be a real PITA to deal with.

BTW that 30cc twin would be nice...the problem with it is that it makes its power at 8,500...we need it to be ported to make that same power at 12,000. in its current design that 30cc twins power would likely drop too much after 10,000 to be worth the weight...but if BH or TRM got thier hands on it...it would be very nice indeed.

showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...

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10-22-2015 04:31 AM  26 months agoPost 27
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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This system has egt, intake air temp, map, o2, throttle position, and map. An optional electronic timing system can be added, and a lambda meter can be added for true, on the fly (pun intended) automatic tuning adjustment.

As stated, the next bird (or 2) will utilize their "UAV" system, vs this standard, generic 2 cycle small engine EFI Kit. It works, and I hope the UAV kit is even better!

The jugs are north south, so the carb and exhaust are east west. The cylinders don't need to be in the airstream for cooling, our fan does that, and it's nice to easily access the carb on one side and the exhaust easily routed out the other side.

We're going to try the Zimmerman stainless mufflers as well, obviously hindsight shows tuned pipes aren't the way to go for THIS application. Gotta use the right tool for the job...

Chris D. Bergen

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10-22-2015 10:24 PM  26 months agoPost 28
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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Damn, with the problem we ran into with the tuned pipes I totally forgot to get video...

I promise to get it with the next 2....

Chris D. Bergen

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10-23-2015 10:59 AM  26 months agoPost 29
goof2

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Bristol,CT

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Chris
I think you may need a little more volume in your adapter plate for the efi. More volume in the intake will smooth out the pulses and make it easier to tune.

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10-23-2015 03:23 PM  26 months agoPost 30
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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Very possible, but at this point it works great with the mufflers. We'll need a lot more time to get it matched with tuned pipes, adjusting the lengths as well as modifying the ECU parameters to get it fine tuned.

And truthfully, I think tuned pipes are unnecessary for this application, we're not going for more power, just trying to quiet it down.

So we'll give the zimmermann's a try, hopefully they'll be easier to bring on line....

Chris D. Bergen

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10-23-2015 03:35 PM  26 months agoPost 31
jbjones

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Columbus, Mississippi

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Chris Bergen : And truthfully, I think tuned pipes are unnecessary for this application, we're not going for more power, just trying to quiet it down.
Aaah..I see. Still looked badass, though!

-JB

J. B. Jones

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10-24-2015 04:05 PM  26 months agoPost 32
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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This bird can already carry 25 lbs of payload, so power isn't a problem.

But where this thing is headed, noise could be a problem. Looking into new rotor blade technology as well, bring down the acoustics from that area also...

Gonna be an interesting year!

Chris D. Bergen

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11-12-2015 10:35 PM  25 months agoPost 33
cmartin

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Kouts IN

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Good to try something new for sure, Next , the price point for the twin needs to be more affordable, an electric starter setup needs to be an option since there are issues with the pull start, or implement decompression buttons on the cylinders to help with starting. don't know how many times I broke the starting rope and had sore fingers from starting. Other than that, the twin is a winner in my book.

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11-13-2015 05:38 AM  25 months agoPost 34
RM3

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Killeen, Texas - USA

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the price point for the twin needs to be more affordable,
without demand there is no need to drop the price...

and its really not the price point thats the problem.... IMHO 2 stroke twins for THIS heli hobby like 700-800 class sport models would be best in the 30cc range and would have to be ported to make power in the 12,500 - 13,500 range and not the 8,000 range they currently are.... they would weigh more than a 30cc single but they would vibrate a whole lot less and therefore would be worth it.

but it seems no manufacturer wants to take on that project...theres not enough money in it.

showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...

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11-13-2015 02:29 PM  25 months agoPost 35
wjvail

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Meridian, Mississippi

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...and would have to be ported to make power in the 12,500 - 13,500 range and not the 8,000 range they currently are....
RM--- You've mentioned several times in the past that a gas twin would have to run at much higher RPM than they currently do. Why do you say that? Why not just run them at the designed RPM and gear appropriately?

Granted there is more power to be had at higher RPM but given there are currently engines already in production ready to be installed - and designed to run below 10K - why not use them? It would seems to me that it would be easier to change the gearing of a existing helicopter than design a new engine. There are numerous examples of nearly identical helicopters only slightly modified to accommodate different engine requirements.

Is it a clutch issue?

Bill

"Well, Nothing bad can happen now."

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11-14-2015 12:15 AM  25 months agoPost 36
RM3

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Killeen, Texas - USA

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Granted there is more power to be had at higher RPM but given there are currently engines already in production ready to be installed - and designed to run below 10K - why not use them?
you answered your own question.

it really is a matter of HP AND torque... its better to run an engine at peak HP and use gearing to multiply the torque at that speed.

its just like many muscle cars, most produce peak torque low in the RPM band. like my car... max torque happens at just 2,400rpms... but peak hp happens at 5,200 rmps... If I want to launch the car hard off the line and accelerate as fast as possible (get the most power from the engine) I have to shift gears just above that peak HP point.

So if twins were truely suited to heli applications there would already be lots of kits by multiple manufacturers that would make tiny twins for this purpose (besides bergen) that were suited to sport flying or maybe mild 3D....but like I already mentioned, there is no money in it and the power they produce at the lower RPMs is just not suited to the type of flying most want from gassers which is sport flying.

People complain enough about gassers being pigs in the air or too loud when running pipes, or just feel too heavy (cause they are used to nitros or electrics)... putting a twin into it that makes peak power at only 8,000rpms would make that perception even worse IMO...would it work? yes, but would it be sluggish... you bet.

showing a preference will only get you into trouble, 90% of everything is crap...

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11-14-2015 02:29 AM  25 months agoPost 37
cmartin

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Kouts IN

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I agree the demand isn't there, but there isn't enough to the twin to justify the 6,500.00 price difference over a standard Gasser, thankfully I didn't have to pay the 8,000.00 for the one I had. That being said, the twin is a beast of a heli and I liked flying it...

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11-14-2015 02:38 AM  25 months agoPost 38
jharkin

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Holliston, MA - USA

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The reason for more RPM is to get more power out of the same displacement. If you are not adding forced induction the way you get more power is to run the engine to higher RPMs and modify the intake/exhaust track (carb, manifold, porting and/or valves in t case of 4 stroke) so that it can breath well enough to make the same torque at the higher RPM.

Airplane engines are optimized for peak power at lower RPM because we are limited by usable prop loads. Running a large gas engine at 12000 RPM on a plane would limit you to a small diameter (to avoid supersonic tip speeds) which is good for speed but bad for thrust.

By the way, there is NO WAY that little hobbyking 30 twin makes 3.7hp. Probably more like 2.7 if even that. General rule of thumb for well designed airplane gas engines is around 1 hp per 10cc on a well designed single, little lower on twins. Look at the entire lineup of DA, 3W, ZDZ, Zenoah etc and you wil see this rule hods up well across the sizes. Confirmed by user prop rpm reports.

----

On another topic - Chris, how do you get o2 to work on your system?

I remember when Horizon was working on an EFI engine a few years ago they eventually had to abandon it. They said they where not able to make o2 work because the two stoke oil residue in the exhaust poisoned the sensors so they where limited to using rpm, throttle position, EGT and it just wasn't reliable enough.

Obviously it can be done as DA does it for their commercial UAV two stroke engines... but at $10-15k a pop . ouch.

-Jeremy
Whiplash-G
Helix 700G
T-Rex 450 fbl conversion
alot of planks

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11-14-2015 03:39 AM  25 months agoPost 39
Gearhead

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Vt

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gassers are cool, that's for sure,,, but,, pod & boom fun is one thing, and a heavy camera ship is another thing,, so how much is the average "fun flying" pod & boom gasser pilot willing to pay for more torque and 300 more HS RPMs ??.. simplicity I say, the last time I priced straight Methanol it was $4.19 a gallon (5 gallon jug), more than gas> yes,, yet, a he!! of a lot less than 30% for a guzzling 90 or 105 glow burner, your engine should tune easier and run smoother on Methanol too. get off the gas and get on the Meth

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz

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11-14-2015 04:41 AM  25 months agoPost 40
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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Jharkin, The O2 sensor used was part of the kit purchased from ecotrons so I didn't "do" anything to make it work. They did give instructions on placement of the sensor, making sure it's not sitting in a low spot of the exhaust so excess oil sits on it may be helpful. Additionally, I have specific oil recommendations that have been decried here and on other forums, maybe my choice of oil is helping as well...

Chad, as to the price we ask for our product; apparently YOU don't see the value, but also apparently many others do, especially when you compare the alternatives out there with similar capabilities and support (if there is such a thing...).

If you're simply interested in our Industrial Twin as a "hobby" aircraft, yeah I could see trouble justifying the cost, especially to momma. However.... This isn't that. This aircraft is intended to work, to perform a purpose ABOVE weekend enjoyment. I, and the people who have purchased them, think they are a very cost effective tool, again given the alternatives both in full scale and the UAV market. But that may depend on your specific needs in a UAV.

Adding EFI to it adds value in simplicity of tuning, and has also made starting much easier, usually only needing ONE pull! Breaking the rope is almost always an issue of "technique" and strength, with those typically having the most issue just need to spend some time in the gym...

Chris D. Bergen

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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersEngines › Is Auto Tune Going to Come to Model Helicopters?
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