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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › first gasser and first heli!
12-17-2003 03:08 AM  13 years agoPost 1
NightLife

rrNovice

Tampa, FL, USA

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looking into gas helis as my first heli... i know that it will cost more when i crash... how much are these crash kits going to cost? for a x-cell gas or a bergen intrepid?

that brings me to my next question... which heli? as this will be my first has heli i want something thats easy to learn off of (heard they all are when toned down) then what would be the best as in price in parts? upgrades? ease of building? and overall 3D ability?

i found the x-cell that has the 231PH engine with it for $1,049.99... since the bergen site is down how much is a intrepid?

Im looking to use a a JR8103 PCM radio it comes with a GY401 gyro is this good enough for a gas? it also comes with a 9253 servo for $699.99

is it bad idea to mix servos? i was thinking of using (4) 8311's ive heard ALOT of people use them with good results... so where would i put the 9523 on the tail correct?

what kind of batteries do i need to power such a bemoth? with the long flight times i would like a battery configuration that would allow me to get at LEAST 1hr flight time if possible?

what type of accesories do i need besides a fuel can and manual fuel pump?

thanks for your patience and time i appreciate it.

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12-17-2003 04:00 AM  13 years agoPost 2
Dr.Tim

rrElite Veteran

Mojave Desert

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The Bergen is an Excellent Choice! It comes complete with tube drive, G231puh, Metal Head and thier Tail Rotor Gearbox is Awsome ... It's about $1290 or so Complete ...... Give them a call at 269-445-2060

.

From Simple minds come simple ideas! Approach Engineering

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12-17-2003 04:31 AM  13 years agoPost 3
rcrebel

rrApprentice

Michigan

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How are the price of repair parts of a Bergen in comparison with an Xcell?

Does the Bergen come with the 231PH engine?

Isn't the Xcell a tube drive tail?

How is the Bergen tail gearbox better?

Just a few questions I have too...

rcrebel

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12-17-2003 04:33 AM  13 years agoPost 4
NightLife

rrNovice

Tampa, FL, USA

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what about my servo selection? batteries? radio? gyro? flighttime?

i have no idea what to use for a gas heli... i had my eyes on a 60v2 raptor...

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12-17-2003 04:38 AM  13 years agoPost 5
jb_turner

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USA

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Either Heli is a good choice best bet is to do a Search in here and you may see that similar questions have been asked with good replys.

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12-17-2003 06:36 AM  13 years agoPost 6
Chris Bergen

rrElite Veteran

cassopolis, MI USA

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Hi nightlife,

I don't get into the "mine is better" thread but I will tell you about the Intrepid.

The torque tube drive Gas Intrepid is $1299.00 with engine. If you order it soon you will probably get the G231 engine. If you wait too long you get the G26

We use an alluminium arrow shaft for the torque tube. Replacement $4.50.

Aluminum tail boom. Replacement $16.00.

All aluminum head, including blade grips.(never sold a replacement pair due to a crash)

All aluminum tail gearbox, aluminum tail blade grips.(same as above)
Preassembled, open design. easy maintenance.

All controls push pull from the servo to the swashplate, no interaction, non ccpm setup.

Frames are made from G10, strong and light, No stress cracking or bending from hard landings. replacement $15.00 a piece(4 pcs per heli)

Hollow hardened main shaft. replacement $20.00

Stainless head axle( with Heim Ball installed on center of shaft). replacement $20.00

8103 radio and 8311 servos will work just fine as will the 401 gyro.

I run an 1800 ma battery pack for long flight times.

All prices given are approximate

Chris D. Bergen

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12-17-2003 11:59 AM  13 years agoPost 7
NightLife

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Tampa, FL, USA

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about the G26 when do you think you will make this switch? i may order it in Feb. for a birthday present for myself do you know when your website will be back up and running?

with the 1800mah pack how long can you play?

I really appreciate it when a company is ready to backup and give info on their product class act!

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12-17-2003 02:52 PM  13 years agoPost 8
Chris Bergen

rrElite Veteran

cassopolis, MI USA

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We have G231's in the shop right now. When they are gone, it'll be G26's.

Website..................Not Sure...............Al should be able to tell you when it comes back up

An 1800 ma pack gives me at least 3 flights before recharging. Mind you, these are 20 to 25 minute flights.

We aim to please.

Chris D. Bergen

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12-17-2003 06:01 PM  13 years agoPost 9
NightLife

rrNovice

Tampa, FL, USA

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thanks I appreciate it.

what type of battery do you use for your radio? and ive looked for 1800mah's and cant find any... what do you suggest?

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12-17-2003 06:19 PM  13 years agoPost 10
AGRAV8

rrProfessor

Mosquito Coast......Houston Texas

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An alternative.....

I have owned xcell gassers in the past, still have one that I am using for a scale project. Nice heli's......as is the offering from Bergan. I found the price of spare parts kind of expensive with the xcell. I will say it held up pretty well in minor incidents. I personally am awaiting the release of the gasser from Century. I already have a 90 sized machine from them, and I am very pleased with it. The one I want is powered by the g-26, although the 231 would be fine for your situation. I'm not going to tell you which machine YOU should buy........the ones mentioned here are very capable.
I WILL address your radio/servo/gyro/battery question. The 8103 is VERY capable for the majority of fliers AND machines. Your choice of ds 8311 servo's (three is enough) to operate the collective and cyclic controls is a good one. I use them in a couple of heli's myself, and they are very strong and fast enough to make the ship responsive. I would go with a non digital low torque (like a 537 or so) on the throttle....heres why. In case of a radio failure (lost power while inflight) the carb on the gasser has a return spring.....and with a soft servo, the vibrations from it running, ect......it can close itself off and help minimumize damage when the machine hits. Just my personal thought on it. It has happened FOR me once, I had a switch go out. The engine went to idle and then quit. This was on the ground during spool up, and there was no damage involved.
The 401/9253 combo has been used with 8103 radios for quite some time. There are NO KNOWN issues with this combo.
I use a 3000 Mah NiHm battery pack as MINIMUM in my large digital servo heli's. This would accomplish you goal of 3 flights or more before recharge.
I strongly suggest a voltwatch or simular device that shows RELATIVE battery voltage on the heli....and place it where you can visually monitor it while the heli is running.
One thing for sure, with a gasser it isn't as hard on your fuel budget to learn hover etc. as it would be with a large glow machine. In that respect, it is a good choice to learn with. Tuning the engine might be a bit of a challenge, as you don't have a smoke trail to judge by like with a glow motor. Fear not, there are a bunch of good folks here that will coach you as needed.
What ever machine you go with.....get someone experienced to help set it up and check it over. These days, it is 30 % heli and 70 % setup that are the keys to a first machines' success.

Hope this helps......and good luck with your choices.

James

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12-17-2003 10:02 PM  13 years agoPost 11
NightLife

rrNovice

Tampa, FL, USA

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thanks

and does anyone else have any comments on running a low torque non digital servo on the throttle? agrav8 im not saying that what you recommended was bad i would just like some more opnions.

ok now what type of tools do i need to build this kit?

i finally found some big battery packs at radicalRc.com is this a good place to buy one from?

also a 4.8V pack seems the norm compared to 6V... so i'll get this one...

Radical RC 4000mah 4 cell 4.8V NIMH RX Pack
Weight 7.75 oz. Sanyo HR-4/3AU 3800 NIMH. Slightly longer than 1400 A Nicad, same diameter. should be plenty no?

what would be a good TX pack?

was looking at a

1650mah 9.6V NIMH Square TX Pack

says it fits JR radios... anyone comment?

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12-18-2003 12:46 AM  13 years agoPost 12
NightLife

rrNovice

Tampa, FL, USA

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ok i was doing some research on hear about servos and read this.

"Use any good coreless or digital servos you wish with at least 80 oz/in of torque for cyclic and a matching (matches the gyro) FAST servo for the tail. For collective, find the most power and precision you can afford ( I use 144 oz/in at.16 sec.)."

isnt the collective same as the throttle?

i was recommended to use a standard servo above.

I would go with a non digital low torque (like a 537 or so) on the throttle..

if im off on my terms excuse my stupidty...

right now im looking at using a GY401 gyro and a 9523 tail servo... and not sure about the rest... most likely the 8311 jr servos... not sure if i would use one for the throttle...

dont i need 5 servos?

im Really sorry if all this is moot and im stupid lol

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12-18-2003 02:18 AM  13 years agoPost 13
BIGRCR

rrVeteran

Easley, South Carolina

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Yes, you need 5 servos. The quote you have is from one of my posts and should be a good reference . For a throttle servo, you can use about any good RELIABLE servo whether it be standard, coreless or digital. Here you can get by with a lesser "featured" servo, but it must be one that can take being in a heli. The throttle on a gas bird does not need to be that fast as the fast servos don't really make much difference. A good Futaba or JR standard or coreless will do fine at .23 seconds or greater, but does not have to be in the teens to work well.

The 9311's would be an excellent choice for collective and cyclic and the GY401 and 9253 as well for the tail.

No, the collective and throttle are separate functions even though they are controlled by the same stick movement.

Not stupid at all. Everyone has asked the same questions when they were looking for the same info!

Hope this helps!

BIGRCR- John Garst

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12-18-2003 03:12 AM  13 years agoPost 14
NightLife

rrNovice

Tampa, FL, USA

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thanks... whats your throttle servo?

how about this?

http://horizon.hobbyshopnow.com/pro...p?Prod=JRPS4131

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bi...p?&I=LXADX7&P=0

theres only a $10 differnce... the futaba looks alot better by just looking at specs but thats not always the case... it also says its good with helis so it seems the winner here yes?

seems like 4.8V is used like 90% of the time (from what ive read) so i'll use it 2.

wheres a good website where i can learn about collective, throttle etc... the controls of a heli...

EDIT

should i wait for the predtor or fury? when are these birds suppose to be out? i plan on purchasing a heli around feb.

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12-18-2003 03:43 AM  13 years agoPost 15
Dave Barbera

rrNovice

Hubbardston, MA U.S.A.

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I've only been flying for 2 years so take this with a grain of salt.

1. Get a flight simulator
and
2. Get a 30-50 size helicopter that the friend that is going to help you fly recommends
or
3. Get a 30-50 size helicopter that you can get parts for locally unless you don't mind mail order
4. I would recommend getting a helicopter that is cheap to crash, for me, when I started learning to hover my crash cost was much greater than my fuel cost. I'm pretty uncoordinated and it really takes me a long time to learn physical things, this may not be your case. It might me helpful if other people can mention how many times they crashed before they felt comfortable.
5. Finally I had a 30 size and a 60 size when I was first learning to hover. Everyone I spoke to recommend the 30 size for cost, but most experience folks said that if money was no object that the 60 size would be more stable. What I found was the 60 size intimidated me way more than the 30 size. No one mentioned that. The 60 size cost more to fix, in my case about 3 times as much to fix than the 30 size.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,
-Dave

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12-18-2003 04:28 AM  13 years agoPost 16
NightLife

rrNovice

Tampa, FL, USA

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oh believe me before i even order anything it will be G2... i have a experienced heli neighbor... he has a x-cell gasser that will help me...

im not going to rush into anything with this... of course i wont start flying the real deal until im absoutlely comfterable in G2 and only then will i try to hover with training gear... heli will be setup and checked over by the guy with the x-cell... hes been into heli's i think for 20 years or so...

thanks for your recommendation though i do appreciate it... i was really thinking of just getting a 50V2 raptor and then when im good with it get a gasser... i asked people if someone could learn off a gasser and if it would be a bad thing... only thing they said was crash kits would be more $$$ and to take it VERY slowly and make sure to have some help, all which i WILL do...

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12-18-2003 01:42 PM  13 years agoPost 17
BIGRCR

rrVeteran

Easley, South Carolina

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Nightlife,

Either of those servos would be fine, but not that neccessary. Yes, I use the JR 4131 on throttle, but because I have them.

Personally, I would not use 6 volts. Some of the new systems that are to be specifically used with a system regulator would be great though. I use only 4.8 volt in my helicopters due to using 6 volts a few years back and having problems. The new gyros and some servos really don't like 6 volts. The regulated systems now use good enough regulators to use higher voltage. These are always accompanied by higher amp packs to make up for the higher power usage when the machine is on 6 volts.

The new Fury gas MAY be out by Feb. but it is still in testing and developement to make it the best it can be and very user friendly.

A gas machine is an excellent choice for a trainer, but keep in mind the higher cost over a 30 machine. The bigger machine is more stable and the gas machines are very durable. Parts cost are more on a larger machine than for a 30 bird of course. It's all in what you want and can afford.

Hope this helps!

BIGRCR- John Garst

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12-18-2003 05:35 PM  13 years agoPost 18
NightLife

rrNovice

Tampa, FL, USA

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right... and i was thinking the same thing... why get the newest thing when im learning? go with the tried and true bergen intrepid

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12-18-2003 10:27 PM  13 years agoPost 19
Chris Bergen

rrElite Veteran

cassopolis, MI USA

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As usual, John's info is right on the money.

The 4131's have been a steady, reliable servo for many years.

Chris D. Bergen

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12-19-2003 05:30 AM  13 years agoPost 20
NightLife

rrNovice

Tampa, FL, USA

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ok so i'll have a GY401/9523 on the tail, a 4131 on the throttle and 8311's on the rest...

now for battery packs and chargers...

what type of charger do i need for a 4000mah 4 cell NIMH RX pack, and a 1650mah 9.6V NIMH TX pack?

i should beable to get about 6hrs on the TX pack so no need for a quick charger...

and what an hour or so flight time with the 4000mah 4cell pack?

i dont want a really expensive charger... but i would want one that could charge the RX pack pretty quick... so i could fly again.

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