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HelicopterRadio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt › CSM 560 Micro setup help
12-15-2003 06:37 PM  13 years agoPost 1
scouse

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UK Liverpool

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I dont seem to be able to quick trim the gyro properly. While in mode 0 (non HH) do u toggle the switch 5 times ending up in Mode 1? Or is it really toglled 10 times so u end up in mode 0?
It doesnt seem to make a difference because the tail will still keep drifting in non HH mode no matter wot i do
1 turn on the pushrod will change the drift from left to right but no steady hold.

And errr no posts suggesting I should get a 401/combo please.

Thx

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12-15-2003 06:52 PM  13 years agoPost 2
spurry

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Reading, UK

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Are you sure? A drifting csm gyro....never in a million years!

Try only half a turn on the pushrod and increase the gain. Could also be that your atv isn't high enough on the aux channel so the gyro does not change modes, but rather wait to hear what Galifrey and Staraero1 have to say as I don't have one. I chose the 601.

James

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12-15-2003 07:20 PM  13 years agoPost 3
staraero1

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Atlantic City, New Jersey

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CSM 560 Micro

Hi scouse,

If you are using the standard mounting pad which comes in the box with the micro 560, change to a stiffer pad first. Then be sure your wires to the gyro are not tight. Those pads supplied with the 560 are too mushy and let the gyro move around.

Run the auto setup again, then hover. Use the link to stop almost all drift in normal mode, then flip the switch in a no wind hover without touching the tail rotor 10 times. 5 times both ways between the rate and heading hold numbers. This will then center it perfectly, even while in rate mode. The arm on the rudder servo should measure about 19 MM, an the initial gain setting of 84 to 88 on both heading hold and rate mode should be used to start.

If you make the mounting pad change to a firmer one, and set your gyro up again, the problem will be solved. The 601 gyro this guy is refering to mounts on a fairly thin mounting pad. It also has a metal damper in the middle of the pad. If you mount a 601 on that loose pad like the one CSM supplies with the 560, the 601 will chase you around the field. Again, use a thinner mounting pad then the one supplied. Then ball link trim the gyro in rate mode, and then run the auto trin in a hover, and the problem will be solved. Be certain all trims and subtrims are at 0 by number in the rudder. Be sure all the tail rotor mixing is also turned off or IHB. in your transmitter.

The 601 will not perform as well as a 560 when properly mounted, and link trimed and flight trimed. You can count on it. Let us know how you make out with a good mounting pad.

Staraero1

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12-15-2003 07:29 PM  13 years agoPost 4
scouse

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UK Liverpool

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Cheers fellas

Staraero1
Thanks for all the info there, Im actually using 2 of those pads as it advises in the manual somewhere.So id guess the thinner pad u suggest will porbably sort it out.

Im gonna have a retry tomorrow if i can get my hands on some double sided sticky tape (Blue Peter style)

Once again thanks for the help


Mark

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12-15-2003 08:37 PM  13 years agoPost 5
<(tRiNiTy)>

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Antwerp - Belgium

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Hmmmm,

I have exactly the same problem. Only, it alway's drifts in one direction (righthand) but very slow. It takes (while hovering) 30 secs to go from tail in to full sideway's right. In boths modes (HH and Normal). I've mounted my gyro also with the standard pads that came with the gyro. But only just one :-) I'm using a carbon pushrod, with servo mounted on the tail. the wiring is not strapped together at least 15cm from the gyro (as described in the manual). My servo arm is about 13cm long, and my Gyro gain is set at 65% in both modes. So, i'm going to try what staraero1 sugested, and let you all know the outcome after next wekend :-)

Raptor30 V1
Greetz

I NEED MORE BLING !!!!

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12-15-2003 08:41 PM  13 years agoPost 6
staraero1

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Atlantic City, New Jersey

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CSM 560

Hi scouse,

That will sort it out fine. Be certain to run down your rudder menu and see that all the tail rotor mixing is off in each flight mode on the 8000 in 1 2 3 and 4. There are three mixers down near the bottom of the rudder channel which can have different settings in each flight mode. All of them must be 0 as well along with the dynamic trims in the rudder channel if you have this option turned on in the 8000.

The firmer mounting pad will then sort the problem out for you instantly. Which helicopter type you using the 560 in? Also a neat trick on that 8000 radio is to run the 560 in normal standard mode in the normal flight mode of the transmitter. The other three modes should be set to heading hold mode. If you set all the collective pitches even in each flight mode, you can set it all up on the flight mode switch, and then toggle it between normal and flight mode one in a hover for the flight trim function. I run the 560's in normal rate mode in the normal mode of the transmitter. Then the other three modes I set it up to be in heading hold modes.

If you want heading hold in all four modes, when you are finnished with the flight trim setup, put the normal mode gyro number in a minus number. Then all four modes are heading hold always. I prefer to keep the rate mode in the normal mode of the transmitter. This lets me run the flight trim on the 560 first flight of the day. Even though you don't need to do this, it is something I do at the beginning of a flight day on all my helicopters. I never fly aerobatics in the normal flight mode anyway. Be mindful of one thing though. When the 560 is setup correctly, rate mode in a hover and flying looks almost as good as the heading hold mode on a CSM 560. Just be certain you are always in heading hold mode before you start doing 3D aerobatics.

Staraero1

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12-15-2003 09:01 PM  13 years agoPost 7
scouse

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UK Liverpool

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I'll have to get my radio manual out for some bed time reading

Just 1 last ? what type of mounting pad do u recommend?
I thought i had some left from my old CSM180 which i thought where thinner but i cant find em so ill have to order some.
Although i did find some very tough velco but ill be checking it out properly first if i do use it.
Oh yeah 560 is in R50V2

Thx again
Mark

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12-15-2003 10:10 PM  13 years agoPost 8
staraero1

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Atlantic City, New Jersey

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CSM 560

Hi scouse,

Anything like a good thin double faced tape. Then double it up and have a go. There are new firmer mounts in the 560 micro gyros now. They are the best. Where are you located? Send me a PM and I'll send you a couple of the new ones. I bought some as soon as they came out from CSM and changed those spongy pads out on my gyros.

I still don't understand the reason they used such a soft mount with the 560. That very soft pad would be the trick setup for a very smooth set of helicopter mechanics, but in reality, there is really no such thing. I assume you are using the real thick soft spongy mount that came in the box right? Just don't use those mounts for any gyro. In theroy they should be great, in all practicallity they let the whole gyro wiggle around.

In any case, change the length of the servo arm. The best length to use is 19MM. From the center screw to where the ball is mounted on the servo arm. Then run the gyro auto setup first. Set the end points to each end, as far as you can go without binding each side. Then trim the tail in a normal hover in rate mode with the rudder ball link. Use a couple of hover tests to trim the ball link. Then run the flight trim while hovering. 5 back and forth flips of the flight mode switch at one second intervals. Your tail will now be locked up tight as a drum. In both the rate and heading hold modes with a gain of about 86. Once you do this, set the rudder channel end points in the transmitter to about 80 and 80. If the rudder stick feels too sensitive, lower the end point numbers in the transmitter. If you want a faster rudder response, increase the rudder end point numbers in the transmitter.

Two questions I forget to ask. Which servo are you running with the 560? Also have you hooked the computer up to the 560 gyro yet? If you have hooked it up to your P.C., and changed something in the setup internally to try to make up for the mounting pad problem, hook it back up and set it back to factory defaults. One click of the mouse will do the factory default setup again. And it is clearly marked to do this. Always read the gyro first, then change back to factory defaults. This will tell you the interface is hooked up correctly when it reads the gyro's current settings. Any questions about the computer interface send me a PM. I'll explain what you can change easy in the internal gyro setup. You change settings in the internal gyro software to achive any type of rudder stick feel you choose.

Staraero1

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12-15-2003 10:45 PM  13 years agoPost 9
staraero1

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Atlantic City, New Jersey

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CSM 560

Hi tRiNiTy,

Same thing for you. Get rid of the soft pad and go to a stiffer one. Increase the servo arm length to 19MM and run the auto setup again. Which version software you have in the 560. The originals had version 2 and the recent micros had version three. The real difference is you can run much higher gain settings with version 3 software. The version 2 software works very well also.

Version 2 software requires you to start the gyro gains at about 74 on both gains. Version 3 software lets you start at about 84 gain settings. Do you know which software version you have? Even the version 2 560 software will provide an iorn like grip on the tail when setup correctly. Any questions send me a P.M. and I'll be happy to answer them if I can concerning your 560 setup. When you get it standing tall the first thing you will notice is how smooth it is over other gyros, yet the stop control is very positive with it.

I am assuming you have not changed the internal setup of your 560 as well. If so first reset it to factory defaults. Also I assume it has not been crashed hard.

Staraero1

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12-17-2003 09:27 AM  13 years agoPost 10
<(tRiNiTy)>

rrNovice

Antwerp - Belgium

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Hi staraero1,

I've done everything you suggested, I've put a stiffer/harder pad on the Gyro and my servo arm is set to 19mm. The only thing left to do right now, is sit and wait till Saturday morning . God, I hate those dark evenings I'm using the new 560 micro gyro. So it's version 3 anyway

Thx for replying !!!

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12-17-2003 01:29 PM  13 years agoPost 11
staraero1

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Atlantic City, New Jersey

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Hi tRiNiTy,

Be certain your wires are not pulling against the gyro case, and that all the transmitter trims are at 0 by number in all flight modes. If any transmitter trims were out during the auto setup this is what the gyro will see as center rudder stick position. Be certain all the rudder trims were 0 during the auto setup. It sounds like it is ready to go. I assume you re ran the auto setup and reset the end points for the new servo arm length. The initial gain settings in both rate mode and heading hold mode should be between 80 and 90 somewhere to start.

If you checked that you had about 4 degrees of tail pitch at the end of the auto setup when the servo parked in center, hover it in rate mode and use the ball link to trim any drift out in rate mode. Then use the auto trim in a hover to lock it in dead nuts. After you have done this the 560 will even hold in rate mode very well. So good in fact, be certain you are in heading hold before you start flying aerobatics. The thing is so good it will fool you in rate mode, and make you think it is in the heading hold mode already.

Staraero1

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12-17-2003 04:56 PM  13 years agoPost 12
G.Man

rrProfessor

Bristol

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If its drifting in non HH mode then the mechanical trim is adrift...

As per the manual, the gyro must be trimmed for zero drift in non-HH mode then the quick trim is 5 full toggles ie 10 flips in total...

This balances the trim differences between normal and HH modes...

Don't Email me as I wont reply - PM Only (spam countermeasures)

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12-17-2003 08:11 PM  13 years agoPost 13
<(tRiNiTy)>

rrNovice

Antwerp - Belgium

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Hi staraero1, and all others

I just took my rappy 30 out for a walk on my locale parkingarea. so I could test the adjustments that I've made to it (I just coulded wait anymore ). But it's strange. The tail is even more shaky now, and I don't mean wag. The heli goes still to the right (slowly). The servo arm is now at 19mm instead of 16mm. And I've replaced the standard gyro pad with a thinner/stiffer one. I'm using a Hitec 5925MG with a carbon push rod on standard tail blades. In mode0 it go's slowly to the left (and I mean very slowly), and when I switch to mode1, it go's slowly to the right. I've done the 10-times-switching-trick, but no real improvement

But the bad part is, that with my push rod is remounted from 16mm to 19mm on the servo arm, that my gyro gain is now at 50% instead of 60%. As a result, when I increase/decrease pitch fast, the tail is gone (swings to the left)

I very new to this sport, so what do I wrong here ? What did I miss Teach me O great heli gods


** What goes up must come down. Let's just try for one piece this time

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12-17-2003 10:57 PM  13 years agoPost 14
staraero1

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Atlantic City, New Jersey

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Hi tRiNiTy,

You may want to switch that servo out. It is beginning to sound like you have a servo problem. The gain should be running up around 75 to 80. Even with the 5925 servo running with a 560 micro with version 3 software. I suspect your servo is defective, or you have an enormous amount of drag on the tail pitch change system between the servo and the tail.

You should go with a 9253 futaba servo, if you need to replace the hitec servo you have. If the helicopter is smooth when running, you can only have a bad servo, or a defective 560. The gain setting you are using with that servo arm length is marginal at best.

Check your tail rotor rod and pitch slider on the tail first. Is you rod to the tail rotor bellcrank glass smooth when you unhook it at the tail servo? It should require almost no effort to move the tail blades, when pushing the rod disconected at the servo ball link. Does it have drag down along the tail boom hoops the rod runs in? This happens from all three hoops not being lined up, or the tail pitch slider is very stiff. If it is smooth, the servo you have most likely has a problem with it. The 50 or 60 gains will barely work, and would never hold the tail. What happens when you run 75 to 85 gain numbers?

You would have to have a pretty rough helicopter or rough engine to cause a vibration problem this bad. I am going to guess it is the tail rotor rod, or pitch change system with way too much drag resistance. Or the servo is out to lunch. Check it out and let us know. Where are you located?

Staraero1

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12-18-2003 12:33 AM  13 years agoPost 15
MJA

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UK

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Staraero,
Are you going to be around to help all those with drifting sensor problems a few months down the line ,that have taken up your thin mounting pad advice.I think you're under the impression that the thick tape is used to isolate the vibration so that the gyro sensor works better ,which is true
.I think you'll find a large part of it is also to prolong the life of the sensor before it needs replacing,which can be a very short time if you don't isolate enough vibration from the sensor and also fly a lot.

But i could be wrong,perhaps they are more robust now.But going by the fact that when i was having problems with one my errant 560's, i tried it with just plain old
double sided tape (just for the hell of it and the fact it was pissing me off at the time)
, the sensor then died completely on the same flight,i think not.From my experiments and experience with the 560 and older CSM gyro's ,ihave concluded that as far as gyro foam goes,less damping
is not better,unless you like sending gyro's back for sensor replacement more regularly.


Martin

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12-18-2003 09:05 PM  13 years agoPost 16
<(tRiNiTy)>

rrNovice

Antwerp - Belgium

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hmmm,

I don't know. I think I'm going to put the standard pad back on the CSM. Cos I think the tinner pad is making my Raptor shake. Anyway, I've just hooked the CSM to my PC , so I'm going to play with some settings for now. I let some guy's at the club look at it. My flying mates also have the new 560 micro.

Hey staraero1, what is your opinion about the 5925 servo + 560 combination on a Raptor 30 ? Is it good enough you think ? Or should I upgrade to a 9253 futaba servo anyway ? I don't think my servo is damaged, neither the Gyro.

Tommorow I'll will give my tail a decent check-up. So let's hope I find something I'm located in Belgium - Antwerp. So I guess it's to far for you to drop in once in a while

KEEP THEM FLYING !!!

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12-18-2003 09:25 PM  13 years agoPost 17
nicco

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Sweden

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Hi,

I have had simular problem. I am using a "old" 560 and a Futaba 9253.

I my case is was the spindle axle that not was 100%. Please not that it's not nessesary with a crash to make the spindle or main axle to be defect. Sometimes it's enough with a hard landing.

Verify that everything is 100% vibration free, please note that it's impossible to se all vibrations with the eye.

Just my 2...

/N

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12-19-2003 12:57 AM  13 years agoPost 18
staraero1

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Atlantic City, New Jersey

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Hi tRiNiTy,

The servo should be ample for the 560, if it is not defective in any way. I have seen a few people use them with pretty good success. The 9253 servo of course would do a much better job however.

The problem you descrive sounds like a tail rod, or pitch change mech. draging, or else you have something causing a pretty bad high freq. shake in the helicopter itself.

The gain numbers should hit 70 to 75 without blinking, even with the servo you are running with an 18 to 19 MM sero arm. With a 9253 servo you should be hitting 80 to 85 gain settings very easy with no sign of wiggle, wag, or drift.

As far as the mounting pad issue, I don't care for the pad that comes with the micro 560. It is simply way too soft. For a perfectly smooth helicopter it may be fine, but in reality helicopters are seldom ever perfect. CSM has a new stiffer pad now and that is what I use on all the micro 560 gyros. We have also mounted the 560 micros in the fury helicopters, with 401 type mounting pads. With no trouble what so ever. I run the new firmer pads on all my micro 560's, and the original mounting tape supplied on the large original 560's.

The pad which was supplied with the micro 560 originally, in my opinion, is just too soft. I took all them off and replaced the pads with the new firmer version. The stiff 401 type pads we used in the fury helicopters worked perfectly. Additionally to date, none of us have experienced any sensor problems running the micro 560 on a thin mounting pad.

In any case, check that helicopter over. Sounds like you possibly have a bent head spindle, starter shaft, weak clutch shoe, something along those lines driving your gyro crazy. Even with the servo you are running the gains should come in higher then what you have by a longshot.

Staraero1

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12-19-2003 04:34 PM  13 years agoPost 19
MJA

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UK

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<<
As far as the mounting pad issue, I don't care for the pad that comes with the micro 560. It is simply way too soft. For a perfectly smooth helicopter it may be fine, but in reality helicopters are seldom ever perfect. CSM has a new stiffer pad now and that is what I use on all the micro 560 gyros
>>

Staraero,
I still don't understand your logic here,i would have thought it should be the other way around.Use the softest pad you can get away with for a high vibration enviroment(but not so soft that the gyro case starts to resonate too much independantly to the rest of the heli) especially where you can feel it through the frames going near to the gyro mount location.
And harder pads on a much smoother heli.Now that the CSM 560 micro is physically smaller and lighter ,the gyro itself is now less likely to act as it's own vibration node (retain residual vibration momentum due to its own mass).I still maintain though that harder mounting methods will shorten the useful life of the sensor, before it starts to perform more poorly ,including drift,usually shows up as a need to use a lot of trim away from neutral even changing during the flight
.The gyro sensor becomes increasingly sensitive to vibration,even what you would class "normal" levels, in the same way as a damaged ceramic filter in a crashed receiver.This is what used to happen to earlier versions of the Tokin sensors that CSM used,this latest generation is supposed to be much better/resilient but i'll wager still not immune.


Martin

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12-19-2003 06:37 PM  13 years agoPost 20
G.Man

rrProfessor

Bristol

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I have seen Russ Deakin, the CSM test pilot in the UK experimenting with thinner harder pads...

He has had to all but eliminate vibration from his helis to get the best of this new thinner pad...

I am sticking with the thicker pad as it works fine so far, and as martin says less likely to kill the sensor over time...

Don't Email me as I wont reply - PM Only (spam countermeasures)

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HelicopterRadio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt › CSM 560 Micro setup help
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