RunRyder RC
 19  Topic Subscribe
WATCH
 8 pages [ <<    <     6      7     ( 8 )    >    >> ] 7335 views TOPIC CLOSED
Scorpion Power Scorpion Power
HelicopterOff Topics › Saddam Captured
12-16-2003 03:26 PM  13 years agoPost 141
Newdaddy

rrNovice

Winnipeg, MB, Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Hercules;

I realize that there are always civilians killed in wars, sometimes more civilians than soldiers.

I pointed out the civilian body count site as a sobering reality of the effects of war.

I didn't comment on whether the war was just, unjust, moral, immoral or, any other adjective.

However, I don't feel the subject is one that benefits from the cheering, jeering or glorification displayed by some. Cheering should be reserved for the definitive end of a war.

In addition, the IBC site only shows casualties that are confirmed by at least 3 independent agencies. It doesn't contain unsubstantiated statements like "the millions of deaths that Saddam is responsable for".

Statements like that make someone sound as brainwashed as the Iraqi general population. It will take quite some time to get an accurate estimate of Sadam's misdeeds, it's propably best to wait for the facts than to haphazardly speculate. I'm sure there will be a trial, thats where some truth will come out.

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR
12-16-2003 03:26 PM  13 years agoPost 142
spaceman spiff

rrKey Veteran

Tucson

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Thanks william!

Even a blind squirl finds a nut now and then.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-16-2003 03:35 PM  13 years agoPost 143
spaceman spiff

rrKey Veteran

Tucson

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Newdaddy,

Are there any reliable estimates of those who died in Torture? Mass graves?

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-16-2003 04:02 PM  13 years agoPost 144
hercules

rrApprentice

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania - USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

pistole, I agree that the "waters do become murky" at this point, too. There are so many media sources, state run and free alike, that appear to give information that leads to be confusing and is usually based on self-interest. It happens in your country and every other. In America it happens mostly because of political favoritism and gets worse as election years approach.

As for war as a legitimate means. It is when the leader and governing body keep their own people in fear to control them. The man killed millions of his own people. His sons, may they burn, would kill and rape just because of nothing else to do. He was a threat to not only his own people but to his neighboring countries as well. If the Iraqi people could have taken them out themselves, they would have! Unfortunately, to even give the appearance of non-conformity under Saddam resulted in ones death. Its not right to have to live in fear. Under these circumstances, there are not many options when the UN was dragging their feet and turning their heads giving Saddam every chance in the world( Souldn't have been a surprise given the high number of socialists there!). We are fortunate in America. Independance was gained in this country because of our willingness to fight for what was right. Our country was divided in two by our own Civil War because of people fighting for what they believed to be right. Brother killed brother on those battle fields over economics that lead to the industrial revolution. Our history is all about fighting for the greater good. For me, its a legitimate means, because we built freedom from the ground up in this country and the means to support and defend that freedom. The history of mankind has shown there is no other way when dealing with people like Saddam.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-16-2003 05:10 PM  13 years agoPost 145
Dragon2115

rrKey Veteran

New England

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Spaceman,

What we all have to remember is that this is not going to be an instant overnight thing. These people have been subjected to that kind of lifestyle for almost 30 years. That means there are quite a few that have never known anything but that lifestyle. It's going to take time to sink in that there is a better way. take notice of who they are too, mostly younger Iraqi. They are going to resist change simply through ignorance for a long time. That doesn't mean that in the long run this won't be successful. That's what really gets me torqued up with the nitwit nine presidential candidates that keep hollaring about how it's a dismal failure yadda, yadda, yadda. They're all playing to the instant gratification crowd that fail to realize this is going to take time. We may not see the full realization of all this for another 20 years. Rome wasn't built in a day as the saying goes. Actually it's the nitwit nine that make me concerned that we might fail. If one of them gets into office and pulls us out too soon this whole thing could be for nought.

On the plus side however there have been several reports of a burgeoning middle class that is realizing the fruits of their labor already which is very good news. Maybe once the younger demographic sees this they might realize that there is a better way to live than under ruthless oppression. Something that will help is freeing up their media and sources of information from outside Iraq so they can see how other people in the world live. That also may help spur some desire to join the 21st century.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-16-2003 05:26 PM  13 years agoPost 146
spaceman spiff

rrKey Veteran

Tucson

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Agreed, time will be needed, glad to hear that the newly freed iraqi society is showing signs of life.

I still think we should be carefull to ensure thier society is able to protect itself as soon as possible. we can not stay there for very long, pluss there will be a greater sense of security and independence for the public if the army is properly staffed. it would have been great if half or more of the people involved in capturing Sadam where Iraqi.

I saw some of the democrats on TV the other night. they seemed like they were beating their littel tin drums like wind up monkeys. To be honest i never felt Bush junior was half as smart as his dad was, but i predict annother 4 years is in the bag for GW.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-16-2003 05:59 PM  13 years agoPost 147
9387ASH

rrElite Veteran

UK

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Gentlemen,

The problem will never disappear. History shows that every nation ( and I mean every nation ) has at some time committed heinous acts.

War has been ongoing since time immemorial. The Middle East has always been a hotspot, Africa has ongoing troubles.
Europe has had its problems, the former Soviet Union has ongoing problems, China and Taiwan etc etc etc....

No matter if its a rich nation or a poor nation, they each have their own areas of disillusionment.

The UN as a concept is far better than its alternative. The UN have made mistakes in the past, who hasnt ? Hopefully they and the member nations will learn from the mistakes made and help to solve and pacify situations before they escalate out of control.

It is no use having a slanging match as all it does is inflame the individuals concerned.

As someone earlier in the post stated " I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death the right for you to say it:", oddly enough that was written by a Frenchman !.

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR
12-16-2003 07:12 PM  13 years agoPost 148
spaceman spiff

rrKey Veteran

Tucson

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Cheers to the man who said that!

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-16-2003 07:33 PM  13 years agoPost 149
Jim C

rrVeteran

PA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

As someone earlier in the post stated " I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death the right for you to say it:", oddly enough that was written by a Frenchman !.
NO COMMENT.... about the french part anyways.

jim

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  Attn:RR
12-16-2003 10:45 PM  13 years agoPost 150
Hivoltage

rrApprentice

Ohio

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

expect a carbomb outside your house asshole...

This was a PM I got from m&m just so you guys know what we are dealing with. He also made some comment about my Mom I didnt copy and paste for obvious reasons. This guy is not right.

Thought you all might like to know, if you dont believe me I can forward the message to you.!!!!!!!

I Dont Have No Stink'in Signature

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-16-2003 10:52 PM  13 years agoPost 151
Newdaddy

rrNovice

Winnipeg, MB, Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Spaceman;

The estimates of tortured, disappeared, missing, etc, vary wildly, none are reliable in my opinion, not the 400,000 number being bandied about, not "millions", there's really no point talking numbers yet.

In fact, I don't see how there could be a reliable estimate yet, since the fighting hasn't stopped, there is no indigenous government in place, and they are probably more concerned with thier next meal.

It took years for a commission investigating war crimes in Bosnia to get a realistic estimate, and in some cases they are still trying to identify people by having survivors identify the clothes their relatives wore, since that is usually what's left except for bones, and third world countries usually don't have good dental records.

I have read that it has become a sport for young Iraqi men to assassinate former Bathist party members who were in any way related to the secret police abductions. Since being a Bathist party member was pretty much mandatory to get a decent job under Saddam, lots of bodies are going to turn up dead for years to come.

I suspect that the same revenge motivates some of the attacks against American soldiers and other foreigners, since a very large number of people were made orphans by US/Coaliton bombs. Thinks about all the iraqi soldiers killed in 2 wars. Easily 100,000+ I'm guessing.

No, over there ain't like it is over here, and probably won't be for many, many years, if ever.

My personal opinion is that there never should have been a second invasion. Simply standing at the border handing out M16's, M30's and Stingers to anyone who opposed Saddam would have been much more palatable. Revolutions are much more respectable, because the people have to earn and maintain their freedom.

On another note, it occured to me, that since the U.S. Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing the right to carry and bear arms was intended to allow the citizens of the U.S. to overthrough any future government that was oppressive, would that not require a citizen's militia to be armed with fighter planes, tanks and nuclear weapons in order to be able to excersize that right ? Inquiring minds want to know.

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR
12-16-2003 10:58 PM  13 years agoPost 152
Woody218

rrVeteran

Bismarck, ND

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Hey, Hivoltage:

Don't feel alone, the a**hole m& m sent me a couple very insulting PM's. I actually feel sorry for the guy...imagine him walking around for years with his head up his a**, all the while his brain starving for the oxygen it needs for intellectual thought processes.


Gravity Always Wins!

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-16-2003 11:04 PM  13 years agoPost 153
Hivoltage

rrApprentice

Ohio

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Thanks for letting me know Woody, I thought it was just me. That Boy ain't right!!!!! The Feds take that stuff seriously these days!!!!

I Dont Have No Stink'in Signature

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-16-2003 11:13 PM  13 years agoPost 154
Woody218

rrVeteran

Bismarck, ND

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

He said he had lived in the USA for 35 years...I think Hivoltage should report this to Mark, and also get the Feds involved. When you start making threats about car bombs, that's a federal offense.


Gravity Always Wins!

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
12-16-2003 11:43 PM  13 years agoPost 155
spaceman spiff

rrKey Veteran

Tucson

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

"The Feds take that stuff seriously these days!!!!"

Yes they do.

Mark posted something about turning data in to investigators for some other incident only a couple weeks ago. Al you have to do is push the "problem" button, and it begins.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR
WATCH
 8 pages [ <<    <     6      7     ( 8 )    >    >> ] 7335 views TOPIC CLOSED
Scorpion Power Scorpion Power
HelicopterOff Topics › Saddam Captured
 Print TOPIC  Make Suggestion 

 19  Topic Subscribe

Sunday, October 22 - 8:14 pm - Copyright © 2000-2017 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online