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HelicopterCentury Radikal G20-30 N640 Hawk Predator › Century's new Raptor killer
12-17-2003 02:21 AM  13 years agoPost 21
PullPitch

rrApprentice

Bend, OR

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Raven

Is the Raven basically a CCPM Hawk? (same frames?) Can one convert?

PullPitch
www.skybercam.com

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12-17-2003 04:37 AM  13 years agoPost 22
oldfart

rrProfessor

Vancouver, Canada

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Big Difference!

There is a number of important differences between the $160 Hawk Sport and the Raven 30 @ only $270.00 (same price as Raptor 30)

1 - 6mm feathering spindle with thrust bearings
2 - full metal swashplate (not on Raptor 30)
3 - Radius guide
4 - Metal lower frames with fuel tank under mainshaft (not on Raptor 30)
5 - ECCPM control system (not on Raptor 30 or 50)
6 - rear servo mount for tail rotor control servo (not on Raptor 30 or 50)
7 - different radio tray
8 - low profile H/D landing gear struts with 10mm skids (not on Raptor 30 or 50)
9 - bb t/r control bellcrank (not on stock Raptor 30 only on Pro)
10 -triple bearing tail rotor system (two radial and one thrust bearing in each grip with a machined steel hub that retains the grips with locknuts instead of hex bolts. (not on Raptor 30 or 50)

And the Raven 50 at only $370.00 includes all of the above plus:
11 - Composite C/F mainblades
12 - Bearings also in bell mixer & washout arms.
13 - Torque tube tail rotor drive system (not on Raptor 50)
14 - 4mm flybar system (not on Raptor 50)
15 - stock 9:1 gear ratio
16 - an optional Constant Tail Drive system that will easily enable a selection of gear ratio between 9/1 or 8.46/1 (not possible on the Raptor 50)

Fortunately, the Hawk Sport does have some of the great systems found on the Raven 30 & 50 and the Falcon SEV2.

- The same very strong and rigid upper frames that have proven over many years to be very hard to break in a crash.....ditto fo the lower frames, be they the metal ones or the GRP ones on the Hawk Sport.

- They all have the same rotor head design that has always been extremely flutter free and dynamically stable with any type/brand of rotor blades.

- They all come with the smooth and user friendly two stage power system that takes forever to wear any gear teeth and that does not require any critical alignment to do so.

- They all come with the bullet proof clutch system that does not require its' supporting bearings to turn once engaged (they seem to last forever), or any alignment to insure longevity of the clutch shoes or critical balancing to be relatively vibration free.

- This clutch system also does not require a one-way bearing in its' center for starting. This eliminates the possibility of destroying an expensive clutch by trying to start a flooded engine or through any misalignment between clutch and bell.

- They all come with the user friendly start system that eliminates high frequency vibrations because the internal start shaft stops turning once the engine starts running.

Hope this helps clear up the differences.

Phil

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12-17-2003 06:05 AM  13 years agoPost 23
Lift

rrElite Veteran

Houston, TX

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I flew all three of the Raptor machines from the 30 to the 60 for about 12 months. I really learned alot about working on helis with the 30/50. The 60 was the most reliable of the bunch They all flew nice and are easy to repair. Thank God for that.

But, I have not found a better flying 30 or 50 than the Ravens. Century's Falcon & Raven line is why I now have nothing but Century machines. The low maintenance, great flight performance, and low priced replacment parts made it a no brainer. I remember taking the plunge. I heard all the horror stories here on RR and other message boards about how horrible Heli-World was and that finding parts was a problem unlike the Raptor. It was so bad I was actually afraid to click the "Add to Cart" button. Boy was I misinformed! Nothing but a VERY VERY pleasant outcome to my heli sport. In the hundreds and hundreds of flights I have had on Century machines I have NEVER missed a weekend due to not being able to get the parts I needed to fly.

Century is not for everyone. Same can be said of all the other manufacturers. Everyone in this hobby will take a pilgrimage thru the different brands till they find one or two they prefer. Some here on the Century forum made that journey thru Thunder Tiger, Hirobo, X-Cell, JR or whatever and found what they were looking for in Century. Some came into the hobby on Century and have never tried the other brands. I think we all should try some variety but the key is to not bash and burn bridges on your way out!(hint hint)

So, there will never be any one brand that will kill off all the others. Thats a good thing!

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12-17-2003 06:07 AM  13 years agoPost 24
PullPitch

rrApprentice

Bend, OR

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Thanks Phil

Very extensive. Century seems like the best value. Wierd how so many people dis 'em.

I haven't even got my Hawk together yet but am impressed with the kit.

I chose the Hawk not only because it is cheaper but I think I'll push myself further knowing I can afford to replace it. I'll probably try loops etc sooner than if I had, say a Raptor.

In fixed wing I found the more money I had in a plane, the less fun I had. I was soo nervous when I jumped to giant scale.

Thanks again,

PP

PullPitch
www.skybercam.com

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12-17-2003 12:06 PM  13 years agoPost 25
jento261

rrNovice

The Great South

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SORRY IT WONT HAPPEN!

This whole post about a heli that will take the market by storm is crap,
century cant do what is needed right now to supply parts and have helis in the LHS for sale so if you would just use your common knowlage about century you would know this is crap..

PS: Common knowlage is not common in the dark side

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12-17-2003 12:13 PM  13 years agoPost 26
jento261

rrNovice

The Great South

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WARNING SHOT SHIT

YOU HIT THE MARK

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12-17-2003 02:21 PM  13 years agoPost 27
Lift

rrElite Veteran

Houston, TX

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.

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12-17-2003 06:34 PM  13 years agoPost 28
MG

rrKey Veteran

California

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My prayer.... Lord please help us find our way. Please give us the common sense to know that we do not have to compare and bash other helis to like our own... amen.

Time wasted = Life not lived to the fullest.

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12-18-2003 02:48 AM  13 years agoPost 29
oldfart

rrProfessor

Vancouver, Canada

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Alexander

As this RR forum is for Century flyers or those interested in their helis, I do not see how you may take exception with me making an informative post on our products in this forum. Sorry if you take exception to it. I could understand your objection if I would do so in the Thunder Tiger forum here on RR, but not here. That is what I thought this forum was for?

NOTE: I was listing features of the RAVEN 30 and 50 relative to the Hawk Sport and the $270.00 Raptor 30 and $385.00 Raptor 50, in order to address the initial post.

There is no "BS" in any of my post. It is all an honest description/list of our systems. I will not apologise for providing honest information on our products in our own forum.

Please accept my apology re: the radius guide. The Raptors may not have a radius guide because their front and rear A-Arms do the same job.

I am sure everyone will admit that there is more value in a good ALL metal swashplate then a good composite/metal unit. Even if both may be relatively slop free. That is probably why TT offer one as an upgrade for their 30 size units and why it is stock on their Raptor 50.

I see your current knowledge of the Raven is a bit dated. You may not be aware of the newer Century t/r control system and grips that have been in the Ravens for a good while now. A lot has changed in the two years or so since your very positive review of the initial Falcon SEV2.

Attaching two boom supports to a boom from below or side will give the same support in either case as long as the attachment bolts etc. are secure on both, so I do not see your issue here.

P.S. - a split plastic fan ($5.50) as a result of force starting a flooded OS50 is a LOT less expensive to relace then a clutch with a one-way bearing ($19.95)

You keep referring to the more expensive PRO Rappy....that is not the one that I referred to for $270.00 US. The $270.00 unit is the standard non-pro version? I was trying to compare same priced units and can see nothing wrong with that.

Tail rotors - please check the play in any Rappy's tail rotor blades around their pivotal point on the hub after 150 flights and the same in any of the Ravens after the same - you will find a big difference. The Ravens will still be as precise as at the beginning.

All heli's have their ups and downs as you say. If you take my pointing out the "ups" of the Ravens as "advertising" then I would guess any informative post I make must be.

Note, the intro, basically I just wanted to inform any interested that Century does not NEED to launch a NEW helicopter if it wants to be competitive with any other model or brand, as Century already have units that more then hold their own very well in these areas.

If this fact is offensive to some, there is not much I can say. But I do not think anyone from the "dark side" should have to apologise to anyone for that.

Phil Noel

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12-18-2003 03:27 AM  13 years agoPost 30
steve9534

rrKey Veteran

yakima, wa.

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Falcon

My only experience has been with the original Falcon and I don't have any argument over the "features" of the various helis. I did have a number of problems with my personal version which I purchased used. The original owner was a machinist and had made a new, larger, stronger start shaft after breaking several of the stockers trying to start his TT46. The clutch slipped under the power of a Webra 50 running on 30% nitro. The fan was badly out of balance which lead to high frequency vibrations regardless of the fact that the start shaft dis-engages. The design of the fan is such that I couldn't figure out a way to fit it on a high point or similar balancer and get it balanced right. The vibration lead to breakage of the "strong and rigid" metal lower frames. One of the bearings on the intermediate drive shaft failed leading to the main gear stripping out during inverted flight and a serious crash. When the bearing went out it took the main frames with it. The resultant cost of new bearings, frames, gears, and crash parts totalled almost the cost of a new heli. The head design is competent, but I had a woof when I used some blades with a rearward CG. The t/r drive shaft was too small for the power of a 50, and had a serious wind up problem that was resolved by using a larger piece of piano wire for the task. I was quite happy when I was able to sell it. Steve.

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12-18-2003 06:51 AM  13 years agoPost 31
Gearhead

rrMaster

Vt

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Steve,,, the latest Falcons & Raven don't have these problems,,,

but, you could brake a starter shaft with a (flooded) larger motor, such as a 46 or 50...


Jim

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz

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12-18-2003 10:42 AM  13 years agoPost 32
LongbowAV8R

rrApprentice

Aberdeen, MD - USA

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bzzzzzz... Aye Matey!!!!

Yes Mr. Wasp is correct! (Sorry... I'm watching Pirates of the Carribean and had to toss that heading in there...lol)

Actually I rather enjoy the excellent feel and smooth action of the Torque tube drive systems. Stock on Raven 50, only $24 complete to upgrade the wire. Frames are great... I think they were the one component besides bearings that I didn't have to replace after my Raven lost the receiver and proceded to dig into 2nd base.... literally.

As far as interaction goes, the only helicopter that I have experienced any swash interaction in is the Caliber (30 size)... and that I believe is due to one of the control rods being manufactured too short.... easy fix.

I will say that I haven't ever had a helicopter that has flown that I didn't like and that didn't give me enjoyment!

MERRY

CHRISTMAS!!!

Never Leave Your Wingman!!!
The models will (and normally do) follow me everywhere....

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12-18-2003 08:10 PM  13 years agoPost 33
steve9534

rrKey Veteran

yakima, wa.

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Jim;

What specifically has been changed with the head, drive train, clutch, frames, fan, or start shaft to eliminate the problems? Steve.

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12-19-2003 12:49 AM  13 years agoPost 34
oldfart

rrProfessor

Vancouver, Canada

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Differences

Steve9534.

Like most brands that first delved into the 50 arena....their 46/50 offerings were just a stretching of their 30's. The old original Falcon 46 and Falcon III's were just a Hawk II and Hawk III with a longer boom, blades and a different gear ratio. The components of the head and drive systems were still more for handling the power and loads of a a 30 engine rather then that of the new 50 engines (almost 70% more powerful) Here are the changes to the current versions:

1 - longer 10mm mainshaft
2 - stronger auto bearings (I am sure the "clutch slipping" you referred to was really auto bearing slippage and not clutch slippage with your Webra 50)
3 - A machined aluminum rotor hub
4 - A 6mm feathering spindle with thrust bearings
5 - A new fore/aft A-Arm assembly.
6 - Heaftier blade grips
7 - Very nice F/G composite 600mm mainblades
8 - Improved washout hub with two inset oilite sliders to ride the mainshaft
9 - Full metal swashplate
10 - 5 degrees more collective range
11 - New start shaft design
12 - New GRP material for the fan
13 - Newer GRP with more reinforcment in upper frame
14 - Newer servo frame moldings for better servo arm clearance
15 - 33% Thicker aluminum lower frames
16 - Heavy duty landing gear
17 - New primary shaft arrangement
18 - slipper clutch included
19 - C/F torque tube drive system
20 - Triple bearing tail rotor system with new blade grips from the initial version
21 - Dual tail boom supports
22 - New tail fin set (molded cut outs for 3D)
23 - New Canopy

As you can see their is a lot of difference between the 1998 Falcon and the 2003 FalconSEV2. Just as there would be between a 1998 Honda Accord and the 2003 version.

Phil

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12-19-2003 02:04 AM  13 years agoPost 35
IFHELI

rrApprentice

Woonsocket,RI

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I don`t post much but I have to state one point on all of this. If you compare in the correct way you have to compare the first original version of the Hawk and the first original version of the Raptor they both had slop almost everywhere. They both have thier own problems. They both to me flew about the same. Both could be flip-flop right out of the box with no mods all be it not very percise. I can not and will not put either machine down but I never did like Century . I never own an original Hawk but I flew my friend`s all the time. I enjoyed flying it as much as I enjoy flying my Raptor. I don`t understand why we have to get on here and put every other Heli down because if you look hard you can find flaws in all of them from your $2000 machine to the $269 machine
Keith

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12-19-2003 03:07 AM  13 years agoPost 36
hhart

rrApprentice

San Jose, CA

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Local flyer preference? - R30/50 !!!

Oldfart,
funny thing, I don't see that many century machine here in San Jose, where heli-world located. If falcon 30/50 is so good than raptor 30/50, then I should see more hawk or falcon than raptor on every funfly that I attend here locally......... NOT

I had met several owners of hawk, falcon machine. First couple week of flying, they were so enthusiastic. Afterward, they start swearing like nuts; Something broke, tail doesn't hold, fan is stuck on the ceiling, starter on dog bone seating crack. In fact, I was in heli-world store one time when they were still at Milpitas, Mr Chiao trying to start a falcon ending up with fan getting loose stuck at the fan shroud ceiling. The guy doesn't even know what's going on that he kept trying to start the engine and wondering why the cone didn't turn. What a great machine....... yeaaah right.

Another side note, heli-world support to local flyer is not that great either. If anybody has a chance, go to their store and see how dead it is. All you will see is Hawk30, Falcons, Predator 60 and 90. That's it. Seems like they don't want local customer, internet customer is their only preference. Bottom line is....................... sorry to say, their Service is still SUCK ASSS.....

Hope you are paying attention Mr Chiao.

Alexander, don't feel bad about oldfart, the guy is marketeer. All the time in the funfly the guy only TALK..... I'll be anxious to see him FLYING SKILL. A good way to promote a product is to SHOW not to BULL**** this and that.


hh

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12-19-2003 05:17 AM  13 years agoPost 37
steve9534

rrKey Veteran

yakima, wa.

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Phil

Sounds like you all have been trying. FWIW, the clutch slipping went away when I got a new clutch bell with a new liner, so I doubt that the auto clutch had anything to do with it. Thanks. steve,

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12-19-2003 05:26 AM  13 years agoPost 38
steve9534

rrKey Veteran

yakima, wa.

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IFHELI

I refrained from comparing the two, but if you insist, I also had the V1 Raptor 30 and 50. I did the blade grip flip when I built the 50 because I'd encountered some "woofing" with the 30. I never had this happen with the 50, although the t/r belt would slip occasionally in tail slides or fast backwards flight - the only problem I ever had with the machine. Also, if you'll reread my post you'd see that my complaints were not with the flying qualities so much as the reliability of the craft. Aside from the t/r drive problem, the heli flew fine. It just seemed as if there was always something going wrong with it. Steve.

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12-19-2003 05:37 AM  13 years agoPost 39
steve9534

rrKey Veteran

yakima, wa.

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hhart

Phil is one of the more knowledgeable heli pilots/designers on the planet. You know not what you say. steve

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12-19-2003 03:17 PM  13 years agoPost 40
Lift

rrElite Veteran

Houston, TX

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hhart & all,
Lately I have reached a point here on RR to simply just let these kind of threads go. But, stupid me I got on it and so here we go again....

This thead was not about comparing the Hawk to the Raptor. It was ORIGINALLY about Century bringing out a new 50 to up the anny against their competition. But, as things go here on RR we digress.

One thing you forgot to mention is that Ace Distributing is in California as well. Wonder if that has any significance on sales locally?

Both the Raptor and Hawk are decent helis. The Hawk is really not a good comparison as it is old technology that has been well refined. You will also notice that it is sold at nearly 1/2 of what you pay for in a Raptor. So, if you REALLY want to make comparisons you need to compare the Hawk SE V2(not even currently offered). It is more evenly equipped.

I get tired of hearing about how bad Century's Hawk sucks and their service sucks. Honestly, I wish they would simply quit selling that machine just so people would focus on the helis that are really worth raving over.

Now, you mentioned that your friend's Falcon had a "start cone". If you know the history the last heli that had that was again the Falcon 46. Both of those helis were nothing more than a Hawk with a .46 stuffed in them. Sorry, but I'm a Field Rep for Century and even I have to admit that it was not a very good offering.

If I had the chance to show you the refinements in the Falcon SE V2 or Raven 50 CCPM compared to what you are talking about in your Raptor you would probably agree that they have something more than adequate for comparisons. If you haven't flown/owned one of the Century helis that has been sold since about Nov '01(equipped as they are today IOW) then your are referring to the OLD line and it certainly had it's share of problems like your friend and Steve9534 experienced. Heck, if I had start shafts breaking, clutches slipping, wire drives letting go, etc... I would be pretty disgusted too. That is one reason that my woofing and wah wahing Raptors have long gone bye bye.

I have logged almost 700 flights now on the Century 50s and lately I just added a Raven 30 to the fleet. I have NEVER had blade flutter, auto hub chatter, belt slippage, or easily cracked frames with my Century machines. So, to add fuel to the fire and say what you said is like the pot calling the kettle black. Expecially to come over to a forum for Century owners.

As for Century service???? They are getting better. The guys I fly with and support as a Field Rep agree. They still have alot to learn but they are getting much better.

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