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HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsAlign 3G › Align 3GX version 4.0 Software -- FIXED by VERSION 5.0
10-09-2013 02:03 PM  4 years agoPost 81
9000rpm

rrNovice

Norwich

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I have the tail issue with my 500. In head holding mode the tail is vague, sluggish and wags slowly. Lowering the gain helps the wag but then the sluggishness of the tail is so bad its un-flyable. Upping the gain slightly improves its response but the wagging gets really bad. This is just in basic hovering about too!

but here is the thing nobody else seems to have said but in rate mode the tail is awesome. Its rock solid, not a hint of wag and very responsive.

What settings would cause such a difference in head holding mode?

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10-09-2013 02:19 PM  4 years agoPost 82
knightofcarnage

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chicago

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I don't remember if the software lets u play around with I and p gain but if it does that is your issue

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10-09-2013 03:22 PM  4 years agoPost 83
9000rpm

rrNovice

Norwich

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I and P?

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10-09-2013 03:45 PM  4 years agoPost 84
knightofcarnage

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chicago

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Looks like 3gx does not give you access to it. I have to many FBL units. LOL. On 750 and Vbar you can tune that out with i and p gains.

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10-09-2013 04:47 PM  4 years agoPost 85
VANHELI

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Omaha,Nebraska

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I am still having issues with mine too. I had one flight where it seemed to fly ok...strange? Tonight the 3gx is coming off and getting replaced with a different brand.

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10-11-2013 05:58 AM  4 years agoPost 86
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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No I and/or P adjustments available on 3GX.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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10-12-2013 08:14 AM  4 years agoPost 87
coolice

rrKey Veteran

Northamptonshire, England

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Hey 9000rpm.

Sounds to me like your lock gain is too high, as this can cause a slow persistent wag that only speeds up or slows down when increasing or decreasing the gain value is the tx.
Did you try adjusting this or is it still at default?
Lowering this lock value will allow you to run a higher main gyro gain, in turn giving you back that tighter feel.

I have now seen the tail bounce/over shoot but it's only present on quick stab tail inputs and gets better with higher head speeds on smaller models. On larger models it doesn't seem to be there, a new Trex 800 DFC flew great on V4.
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK
Midland Helicopters

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10-12-2013 06:31 PM  4 years agoPost 88
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Well, I was poking around another popular heli forum last evening (HF) and took a look at their 3GX section.

Seems the tail stuff is not just a one-of kind of situation, many are plagued by it.

And after reading through some of the replies, got suckered into loading V4.0 back into my 450DFC just one more time (like the fourth or fifth time I've decided to give it a try).

The "new" fix as suggested was to go set the DELAY to zero, as the unit defaults to 30, pretty much no matter what you do. Even setting it to zero and getting it to actually STAY at zero is a problem in, and of itself.

The DELAY oddity isn't anything new, at least for me. Check out this post back in MAY 2013:

https://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/p6073771/

-----

Anyhow -- reload V4.0. Go through the DIR setup stuff, go through the rudder setup stuff, go through the throttle/governor calibrate stuff. Make sure I have DELAY set to zero.

Starting with a gyro gain value number of "65" in my JR X9303 Gyro Sense menu, and a Gyro Lock Gain number of 70 in the 3GX setup stuff, head out to my driveway, and would you believe it? Same crappy performance. Left rudder control is wishy washy, the gyro has trouble finding center and staying there. Right rudder, response very quick as it should be, let go of the stick, heading pops back to where it was before the command, and bounces a couple of times. That is the behavior I first noticed.

OK, go back to the laptop, dial the Gyro Lock Gain down to 50. Try it again. Same results, only the left rudder control gets to be more vague, less connected feeling. Increased gain number in X9303 up to 75. Nothing new here, same bad left rudder control, same bad right rudder behavior.

Drop the rudder lock gain down to as low as I can go -- 30. Smaller numbers here just make left rudder control suffer something fierce, and right rudder just not what it should be.

Went back inside, dumped V4.0, reloaded V3.1, go through all three setup processes once more, and the tail behaves as it should. Crisp, clean, solid, and locked in.

-----

Dino tells me Align is "working on it". I sure hope so. As bad as the tail behavior IS under V4.0, the rest of the stuff in the gyro seems nice and promising.

I'm not going to fall for the posted V4.0 "fixes" any more. I'll continue to fly V3.1 till Align finally gets its act together and releases a V4.X version that brings heading hold gyro performance at least back on par with the end of the last century, and perhaps into the present century.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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10-20-2013 03:44 PM  4 years agoPost 89
Dog57

rrNovice

Wales

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Before I start this post I am by no means an experienced pilot and do not profess to be an expert, I have had my Trex 450 DFC for about 4 months running the 3Gx on V3.1 the whole time and never had any issues with it, but as I was doing my first clean and inspect recently I thought it was time to go to V4 so this weekend seeing as I feel like crud with a cold I sat down and done the change, redone the DIR set up and all and went into the garage for a test hover, cyclic feels really crisp and direct but the tail that is where I hit my snag, nose left was sharp and precise, but nose right was dreadful, with small inputs the tail would rebound/bounce back to nearly where it would start from, not good even to my standards, mmmh scratch head time.........

So done a lot of reading on this last night and got no really helpful info out of any of it at all, well a couple of snippets maybe,

So here's what I done,

1. Turned down the rudder locking gain from 70 to 45
2. Turned up rudder gain on TX by 5%
3. Set up tail not in accordance with the manual, yes I did it different,
The manual says, set servo arm 90 degrees then adjust rod till slider is centred on tail shaft, this is how mine was with V3.1 and it worked great, but was pants with V4

So my set up, is as above but adjust rod until 0 degrees of pitch on the blades, then redone limits.

Outcome, can now turn the tail left and right with no bounce back, happy chap again.

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10-21-2013 06:38 PM  4 years agoPost 90
dbirds2

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issaquah, wa usa

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3gx 4.0 tail issues
I have the 450 dominator with 3gx dsmx sat receivers. This tail hold is very strong. To cure the tail problems u have to go in the software and turn tail gain from default 70% down to 45 to 50% and run your gains in tx from 45 to 55% this fixed the problem and the tail works awesome now.

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10-22-2013 02:10 AM  4 years agoPost 91
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Been there. Done that, multiple times. Turning lock gain down makes what is already bad performance, even worse. You might want to re-read my last post.

Lock gain up, lock gain down. TX gain up, TX gain down. Tail rotor pitch, delay.

Never gets better.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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10-22-2013 02:42 AM  4 years agoPost 92
VANHELI

rrVeteran

Omaha,Nebraska

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I've tried it all too. Had one flight when it was dead calm outside that the heli performed well. Other then that the tail has been unpredictable. It never blew out on me but was terrible in the piro stops. Both directions. I gave up on it for now. I put a different FBL unit on and been having a blast with the new 450L. It is a great heli! I might hang on to the 3GX and try again some other day.

Dave V.

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10-22-2013 03:04 AM  4 years agoPost 93
Hate_To_Crash

rrApprentice

Near Lake Tahoe

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I have 4.0 on all 3 of my Heli's

450 DFC 500 DFC 700n V3 DFC

I do not understand the issues some are having.. I would go back and re-check both mechanical setup and software setup. Remember "No Sub Trim" all Zeros.. Yes that means rotating thru all the arms to find the best fit. Lot's of work. When manual calls for exactly 8 and 12. They mean it. No that's not your setting for flight. That only tells the 3GX where 8 and 12 are. I say these things because we had a guest at our flying field last weekend with his 550 and he had 12 and 12 because that's where he want's the pitch and cyclic. He could not understand why it was a handful just to fly let alone 3D.

I have always used 3GX's and V-Bar's Yes I understand the 3GX is designed to reach a price point. But I gotta tell ya.. These things rock when set up by the book....

Mike

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10-22-2013 03:34 AM  4 years agoPost 94
VANHELI

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Omaha,Nebraska

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I know how to set them up. Align also admits to there being an issue. I am glad you are not having any issues.

Dave V.

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10-22-2013 04:05 AM  4 years agoPost 95
Hate_To_Crash

rrApprentice

Near Lake Tahoe

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Was not pointing directly at you Vanheli. My post was just put out there to show not everybody is having issues.. Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way... No harm intended.. Nobody likes being told they are wrong..

Mike

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10-22-2013 04:11 AM  4 years agoPost 96
VANHELI

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Omaha,Nebraska

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Sorry if I came off upset. Not my intention and was not offended in any way. It's all good here!

Dave V.

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10-22-2013 05:13 AM  4 years agoPost 97
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Not my first rodeo either. Not everyone is having trouble but then there are a lot of us who are. Setting up what is a heading hold gyro should not be hit or miss.

There are few gyro-related settings. Tail lock gain and gyro gain. Yes there is a torque precompensation setting and a collective precompensation setting. A software upgrade is supposed to move the product forward, not set it back a generation.

With 8 different helis ranging in size from 250 to 700, nitro and heli, none have shown satisfactory perfomance with 4.0.

I've gone back and forth between 3.1 and 4.0 many times, trying the various solutions and it gets no better.

Dino has acknowledged there is something wrong and that Align is working to correct it. I have to trust his word. If Align really wants the 3GX to be successful in the long run, it has to work well and not require a magic potion to make it work. From the glimpse of what I saw in the cyclic and collective improvements, 4.0 is looking good. With a tail gyro that performs only on a hit or miss basis, they need to step up their game.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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10-22-2013 10:26 AM  4 years agoPost 98
coolice

rrKey Veteran

Northamptonshire, England

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Hey.

Dino hasn't fully acknowledged there is a problem as such, only an issue some are experiencing with the tail feel and that Align are investigating it.

Having spoken to quite a few fliers now with the 3GX, some have it and some do not it appears, this includes factory pilots who report their findings direct to Align.
I'm not disputing that there could be something there which is causing this, but I'm not convinced it's all firmware related either.

I've seen it does get better with higher head speeds, which in turn gives us a more powerful tail rotor, so this could be a hint as to possible causes for the lack of stop accuracy.
In flight the tail feels good, it holds well, still a little whippy perhaps in piro stuff but holds.

Unfortunately this topic has degraded into one that can be misleading to others looking here for genuine help.
It would be nice to just stick to advising others of what problems/issues they could possibly encounter with V4, but not keep banging home personal thoughts.
Then sit back and await a firmware release from Align.
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK
Midland Helicopters

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10-22-2013 01:31 PM  4 years agoPost 99
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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There is a problem. Align has acknowledged it. They are working on a fix. I have shared PM threads between Dino and myself in which he states he's experienced the problem first-hand. He's reported that Jamie Robertson has also experienced it. When asked, Dino keeps telling me "stick with V3.1 until Align releases a new version".

Suddenly, discussing poor performance is simply a personal issue, not a product issue.

Not all see the performance issues. But then many do. And the reports seen here of poor performance mirror my own experience. Similar posts are present over on that "other" forum.

Performance shows up as a vague rudder feel with left rudder, very snappy right rudder performance where the heli snaps back to its original heading instead of the new heading with right rudder. A decided slow wag in forward flight.

It also shows up as failure to stop the tail following pirouette maneuvers then suddenly releasing the rudder stick. Exaggerated overshoot, taking two to three cycles (bounces) to damp out.

Many of the people reporting success also seem to be flying the 450L with the 6S setup. I have suspected very high head speeds (and yes, tail rotor speeds) may somehow play into the success of some and the failure of many. The 3GX needs to play well with more than one or two heli implementations if Align wants the product to be successful. Keep in mind that there is a reason you can buy NIB 3GX systems for $65 in the classifieds. People don't trust it, people don't see the performance as comparable with other FBL systems currently on the market.

Align is not doing itself a favor by releasing SW for the 3GX that isn't up to snuff. There are a lot of detractors out there waiting to jump on the Bash Align bus. I'm not one of those.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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10-22-2013 01:31 PM  4 years agoPost 100
dbirds2

rrNovice

issaquah, wa usa

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Well ive always used beastx and skookum gyros but there is no way im going to spend 800 on a 450 heli so i used 3gx with no issues. You could try going back to 3.1 version to see if it fixes issues. Maybe your hardware is faulty.

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HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsAlign 3G › Align 3GX version 4.0 Software -- FIXED by VERSION 5.0
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