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HelicopterAerobatic FAI F3C F3N Contest › Future of FAI F3C flying
01-01-2013 10:29 AM  5 years agoPost 1
ian694

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United Kingdom

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Hi All,

I know F3C flying doesn't seem to be as popular at the moment but I really enjoy this type of flying and think it's a real shame that more people won't give it a try. But my question is, What do you think the future holds for F3C?

700 or 800 class helicopters?
Full or half fuselages?
Flybarred or FBL?
3 blade rotor heads?
I believe somebody has tried a FBL controller on a flybarred head, could that prove to be a good combination / compromise?

I've been looking at the proposal for the schedule change in 2014, I think it looks really good. I need to get out and start practising ready for this year.

Happy New Year to you all.

Regards

Ian

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01-01-2013 12:53 PM  5 years agoPost 2
rapidity

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ohio

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After some major health problems this past year, I'm hoping to get back to it this summer if everything works out. Have my heli torn down now and refitting to get back at it.

The way I see it. Bigger is always better. As soon as flybarless is perceived to surpass flybar, you won't see flybars anymore.

I'm planning on using my ENV as a test bed this summer. I've concluded the JR 3 blade head can be fitted to it, and I was also going to try the controller on the flybarred head also. I'm thinking with flight modes for hover turning the controller off and letting the flybar do the work, and turning the controller up for upstairs with other flight modes. I'm curious how or if it could work.

Both concepts intrigue me. I'm curious what a 3 blade will add. Used 3 bladed props on planes, but that was just for noise abatement. Performance always suffered. Could be just an ad to sell jr heads.

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01-01-2013 11:56 PM  5 years agoPost 3
johnnie eagle

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Florham Park, NJ 07932

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Future of F3C
I haven't had the opportunity to fly F3C in several years. But when I did, it took a lot of practice to be competitive. Now a days the younger guys don't want to put in the time( nor do they have to ) to be fairly competent at flying. With the BNF helis we have now and FBL setups the younger guys just want to have more fun doing 3d than practice for a competition. If they allow FBL to be flown it may have a better chance. The longevity of F3C doesn't look good at this time.

Just my opinion

Team Minicopter - Peak Aircraft, Team Kontronik USA

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01-09-2013 01:46 AM  5 years agoPost 4
Sherman89

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Morriston Fl

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I am new to the F3C style of heli flight but have spent a few years in IMAC and and would suggest that to encourage participation the F3C game needs a Basic or introductory class to start new competitors in the sport. Without the Basic class IMAC would not exist.

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01-09-2013 01:57 AM  5 years agoPost 5
Santiago P

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South West, Ohio

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We have 3 basic classes in AMA that preceed FAI.
sportman, advance and expert.

Jumping straight in to FAI f3c is virtually impossible.
Please join us.

Santiago

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01-30-2013 01:55 AM  5 years agoPost 6
Gas Power

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Hampstead, NC 28443

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Where do you find the routines for these to practice?

jamie

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01-30-2013 04:09 AM  5 years agoPost 7
Santiago P

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South West, Ohio

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02-07-2013 02:56 AM  5 years agoPost 8
Larry '53

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Spanaway, WA USA

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Am I reading that right? Rate mode gyro only??

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02-07-2013 02:58 AM  5 years agoPost 9
Gas Power

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Hampstead, NC 28443

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You can run heading Hold

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02-08-2013 05:32 AM  5 years agoPost 10
Santiago P

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South West, Ohio

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Is the Future today?
Heading hold? Do you meant tail assist gyro?

Under the normal classes, yes, tail gyro only.

BUT They have now added the provisional classes for 3 axis FBL systems. We had them the last 2-3 years.

3 years ago, 1 FBL showed up, it caught fire on the 1st takeoff. 2 years ago a couple showed up, flew 2 rounds among thenselves, and then needed suicide intervention and lots of therapy. LOL.
Nobody showed up last year with FBL.

My hopes are if FBL competitiors show up this year, we all go head to head with the traditional flybars in the AMA classes.
Going head to head is the only way to boost the attendance numbers, and find out if "the future" is finally here, or not.

You may think FB vs FBL would be like raping a child. In reality, it should be a close battle IF the FBL guys can get it right.

Santiago

Team Minicopter - PeakAircraft.com
bavarianDEMON- Team Kontronik - Scorpion Motors-

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02-13-2013 12:47 AM  5 years agoPost 11
RyanW

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Edmond, Oklahoma

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I have always been interested in F3C flying, but my honest observation (this is after attending FAI and AMA events, from regional Class I, II and III up to the World Competition) is F3C is not going to grow until you introduce F3N (FAI Freestyle) or something similar into the same contest.

You have to cater to the consumer and the consumer wants more. Yes, there are a select few that want it to remain exactly the same as it has been for twenty years. Is it any surprise the same handful of names are always in the top five or ten?

Sometimes you have to change to grow. My analogy after attending the World competition is this... how exciting would golf be (if you are a golfer) if the entire game consisted of putting? There would be a small handful of people who would excel at precision putting, but as a whole you would lose the majority of the players. That is how I see F3C in the United States. You have the entire game in front of you, but only take a small part of it. I believe F3N brings the part the majority of people are interested in.

I will be the first to admit that I haven't studied the F3N rules, but the thought of bringing in more of the aspects of our helicopter's capability is only going to grow this segment of the hobby.

From the manufacturer's point- FAI championships used to carry some weight in advertising and marketing. Now, much (if not all) of the focus is on what the machines can do in more demanding conditions. Speed Cup, 3D Masters, XFC, etc. I think if the F3C format was changed or included more advanced aerobatic and freestyle elements, you would allure the manufacturer to become more involved as well.

I hope this is seen as constructive criticism and not picking on the F3C guys. I want to see it grow and see an area that would make a big difference.

Thanks.

-Ryan
Mikado USA, Kontronik, Opti-Power, MKS Servos

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02-13-2013 01:26 AM  5 years agoPost 12
krcnz

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Tauranga - New Zealand

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@ Santiago
1 FBL showed up, it caught fire on the 1st takeoff
Seriously now, what has that got to do with anything? Go back and read your post - you are slagging off FBL exactly the same way people slag off F3C. FBL is here and traditionalist need to adapt - much like when they allowed tail gyros all them years ago. Its the sort of comment this fraternity doesnt need from someone such as yourself.

@ Ryan

Your golfing analogy is flawed.
1/ Your description of golf includes two aspects of the game - long game (driving) and short game (putting) and you say F3C is like putting - how do you explain the hovering component and the aero component of F3C??
2/ You forgot to add 'scale' in with your 'game' analogy - or is 3D the only important aspect???
3/ So by your definition you are saying (in motorsport terms) that oval circuit dirt racing is behind the times because it doesnt cover the entire 'game' for the punters ie drag racing, off-road truck racing, circuit racing, rally etc etc etc. How can it and why should it? - its a class in its own right and should remain as such.
4/ Maybe you should read F3N - its not as open and 'free' as what you think. We run 3D events inconjunction with precision flying comps here and the compliant from the 3D guys is the 3D program is to 'structured' Well hello its competition flying. If you dont have structure then you have anarchy. You cant have competition based on a fun fly format - too much subjectivity.

The only way to build any class up to respectable numbers anywhere is at the grass roots level over the entire country. You cant just hold the Nats and expect everyone to magically appear. It requires dedicated people to promote, hold and run many events - simple. The hardest thing is to find and retain those people.....

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02-13-2013 03:31 AM  5 years agoPost 13
RyanW

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Edmond, Oklahoma

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Hello Kim,

I know F3C in general gets it's feather's ruffled if you suggest any change, but I think my analogies are spot on.

Putting is precision. F3C is precision. The aerobatic component is (it has been a while since I saw the schedule) elementary in comparison to today's machines and the pilot's abilities. If you want to liken it to driving the golf ball, you are making Par 5 holes 300 yards instead of 560.

Technology in golf has changed. The average distance someone can drive the ball is incredible. The athletes themselves have risen to a new level, just like in helicopters. The golf courses have grown hundreds of yards long to adjust to the changes. F3C hasn't grown to keep up with the machines and the pilots.
2/ You forgot to add 'scale' in with your 'game' analogy - or is 3D the only important aspect???
I am not sure where you are going with this. There is no scale component to F3C. They are doing things normal full scale machines don't do. If you are referring to full bodied fuselages... Curtis and others have shown they aren't necessary to win. They just look cool.

To your third point- that is exactly what I am saying! NASCAR is popular only here for the most part. Formula One is the worldwide pinnacle of motorsports. It is the best of the best drivers and machines tested on the best circuits, all over the world. This is what FAI and F3C SHOULD BE!!! I don't want it being the SUV of all flying. Maybe I am miss-speaking here. I am not so much saying F3C should change as I am saying we need to add to it or add another Fxx competition to the mix to address the capabilities and talent that is out there.

To the fourth and final point- you aren't going to make everyone happy and I am not talking about an all out free for all freestyle. I am talking about a structured competition held to worldwide FAI standards that encompasses the overwhelming majority of flying styles in the world and compiles them in a way that is challenging, fun and engaging.

I couldn't agree more with the grass roots comment. Spot on!

-Ryan
Mikado USA, Kontronik, Opti-Power, MKS Servos

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02-13-2013 04:28 AM  5 years agoPost 14
Salesmanheliboy

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Nashville, TN

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Interesting thoughts...

I have been flying competition for many years and directing contests for over twenty years. Several years running, we offered (in Nashville as well as other competitions) F3N as a venue to compete in.

We had absolutely no competitors at all.

While I agree there is room to offer competitive opportunities for pilots that have a talent and desire for 3d or freestyle, some of them need to step up and help drive competitors to participate in events! I'm more then happy to offer another form of maneuvers (yes they need to be written so the pilots and judges know what the expectations are to be).

A small group of pilots with a competitive spirit is critical to get that moving. Most of the F3C guys don't have a clue what maneuvers (or judging criteria) 3d pilots would like to perform.

From what I perceive, most average helicopter pilots want to have fun and (perhaps) the fun ends when a ranking begins. For me, I look it like golf (I don't play well); I base my performance on how I can improve from one year to the next (or not). I still have a great time with the people I compete with regardless of performance.

I've herd of some pilots in clubs get very competitive with one another. Since they each have their own opinion on who is the best, they all would try to out do each other. As boring as an F3C flight may be, a qualified set of judges help us all know who is doing it the best.

So the chalenge...

A few of you competitive 3d pilots come up with a set of maneuvers (and judge criteria) and lets try it as a provisional event. I'm sure there are several contests in the US that would be happy to embrace this; I certainly will.

Tim

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02-13-2013 04:56 AM  5 years agoPost 15
Santiago P

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South West, Ohio

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@Kim

I was just recounting the utter slow begining that we have experienced here in the US. The fire had nothing to do with the FBL unit, it just happened to be what occured on what we hoped to be the start of a new era.

Im not against FBL by any means, just a bit skeptic that is the way to go today for AMA conpetition. It can all change in 1 or 10 months from now, and I know it will.
When the units and setups become more understood for F3C style flying, I'll jump to it.

For this Nats, I may enjoy my flybar dinosaur one more time.

Santiago

Team Minicopter - PeakAircraft.com
bavarianDEMON- Team Kontronik - Scorpion Motors-

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02-13-2013 04:56 AM  5 years agoPost 16
krcnz

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Tauranga - New Zealand

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(it has been a while since I saw the schedule) elementary in comparison to today's machines and the pilot's abilities
Ryan - then maybe before stating such a crock (imho) go and download the 2013 FAI schedule and go and fly to a level that it becomes boring. I doubt we will see you in any national team anytime soon.

You have missed the point about your flawed analogy. I do realise there is no scale in F3C - thats the point, theres not suppose to be. I think you have missed the point about Formula 1. Its not the pinnicle in racing for many people - its only the pinnicle for those that are interested and believe in it - there are many many other world class series (like Rally or Drag Racing or Moto GP or Isle of Man TT) that have nothing to do with F1, dont need to and shouldnt. As such F3C is F3C - theres nothing to be gained in dressing it up into something it is not. Precision flying is legitimate and more than challenging class of flying - no different to IMAC, F3P, F3K, F3A, Pylon etc etc.
Keep your eyes out for the 2014 schedule - I think you'll see FAI is as progressive as any other competitive organisation.
The class is not the problem - its the promotion and organisation of this class (and many others in a how raft of sports) that are the problems. Recruiting and retaining today's short attention span, quick fix society is an issue for everyone.

Tim - 3D competitive schedules now exist - go look at F3N at the back of the FAI schedules.

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02-13-2013 03:59 PM  5 years agoPost 17
RyanW

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Edmond, Oklahoma

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Kim- I am sorry you are taking this personally. It isn't meant to be. The question was asked what does the future hold for F3C...

Have you ever heard this one? ""If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you got." - Yogi Berra

I did look at the 2013 schedule. It doesn't appear much has changed in the past decade. I don't have a copy of the 2003 schedule, but my guess is that it looks pretty similar. I did however find a copy of the 2006 to 2009 schedule and the images below show that not much has changed in seven years. I do like the F3N... that is basically what I think needs to be added to the US FAI schedule. How long has it been out? I think we were talking about F3N four or more years ago. Why haven't we adopted it???

You see, I have massive respect for those who can fly the precision. That isn't what this discussion is about. It is about bringing new people to this style of competition and looking at ways to increase the desire to participate in said competitions.

From an artistic point of view... it is almost impossible to free-hand a perfect circle. That is what we are trying to do with the precision flying. That takes immense practice and fine skills, but does it attract any new blood to the sport?

As far as Formula 1 is concerned: I am sorry but you are way off base. It is recognized world wide as the best of the best in motorsports. The viewing audience surpasses the SuperBowl EACH race. That happens twenty times a year. The Olympics and maybe the FIFA World Cup are the only things that can beat F1 in terms of world wide viewing audience.

I look forward to what changes lie in place for 2014. But for them to wait five, ten or fifteen years to make a significant change does not put them as progressive as any other competitive organization. Ask any competitor and they will tell you the changes come at an alarmingly slow rate, if at all.

I am not going to argue the point any longer. Just remember the quote "if you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting the results you've been getting."- Albert Einstein

-Ryan
Mikado USA, Kontronik, Opti-Power, MKS Servos

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02-13-2013 05:15 PM  5 years agoPost 18
F1 Rocket

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Melbourne, Florida USA

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As far as the future of F3C flying in the USA is concerned, there is, IMO, not much of one. This has nothing to do with the type/size of model allowed. This has nothing to do with types of maneuvers performed. This has nothing to do with the cost of contest machines or the cost of attending contests. The bottom line is that 99.2% of the active heli pilots in this country simply have no desire to compete in any event.

Danny - DemonAero Support Team

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02-13-2013 05:39 PM  5 years agoPost 19
Ace Dude

rrProfessor

USA

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This has nothing to do with types of maneuvers performed. This has nothing to do with the cost of contest machines or the cost of attending contests. The bottom line is that 99.2% of the active heli pilots in this country simply have no desire to compete in any event.
Sorry, but I have to disagree here. Cost is certainly a major factor for many. Contest machines, time off, and traveling/attending events is seriously expensive, especially for someone who may only have a casual interest in competing.

  

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02-13-2013 05:45 PM  5 years agoPost 20
Ace Dude

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USA

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Ryan - then maybe before stating such a crock (imho) go and download the 2013 FAI schedule and go and fly to a level that it becomes boring. I doubt we will see you in any national team anytime soon.

You have missed the point about your flawed analogy.
Sometimes the attitude of the those involved may also be a contributing factor to the lack of participation.

  

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HelicopterAerobatic FAI F3C F3N Contest › Future of FAI F3C flying
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