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HelicopterScale Model RC Helicopters Docs  Blue Thunder with custom rotorhead and more !
10-22-2012 12:38 PM  5 years agoPost 21
Krumrick2

rrApprentice

Sao jose dos Campos Brasil

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Hi Guys,

THE BLUE THUNDER IS FLYING !

Saturday and Sunday I been testing the rotorhead and Fenestron, was not easy and still have issues with the tail.

At first I test with the Mikado V-Bar 4.0, I did not liked because the BT start to shake a lot even with low gain. Thats was Saturday.

Then I installed the Align 3G, used a trick to the phasing to manteain the links straight.
I really like the Align 3G, is simple and reliable for scale, never had any problem with multiblades, the only con is the fact of not having Virtual Phasing.

The specs of this first flight

Align 3G
T-Rex 600 frame
Smart Models long Main Shaft
My custom rotorhead, Swashplate and Follower
Align 700MX motor with Clutch
Smart Model stock fenestron motor
ESC Castle HV II 80 main motor
ESC Castle HV 110 Fenestron
2 x 6S 5000maH batteries for the main motor
1 x 6S 2650maH battery for the tail
1 x 2S 4000maH battery for the receiver
Flight weight 7,5 kgm ( 2,1 kgm only for batteries)
Flight time 10 minutes

Pros:

1) No vibrations
2) Nice stability and control
3) Cold ESC's Motor's and Batteries

Cons:[S]
1) Lack of tail authority
2) Heli SHAKING, need to improve pitch and throtle curve !.

IN THE VIDEO PAY ATTENTION THAT I'M FIGTHING AGAINTS THE TAIL, NOT THE CICLIC.

THE HELI IS SHAKING, BUT THIS I CAN CORRECT WITH THE PITCH CURVE (MORE HS SPEED).

Watch at YouTube

I will continue with testing different setups during the week.

Manuel

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10-22-2012 01:34 PM  5 years agoPost 22
wingtip

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Indiana

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that is what i was dealing with as well with my imported rchelicopters.eu blue thunder in 1/7th scale.. i was going to modify our indyhelis electric mechanics to the correct servo setup but i ended up selling the kit when strapped for cash when i was unemployed....
but some of the robbe and possibly some vario mechanics with 4 servo setups can already be used as they already have the servos in the correct location, you just have to leave out the servo on the back right corner then just remake the lower part of the swash...

as i said im sure with your talent you can go all the way with it...

congrats on the test flights too ... always a good feeling when you see something youve machined working well in flight..

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10-22-2012 03:02 PM  5 years agoPost 23
Mojave

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Palos Verdes, Ca. USA

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Be careful with the 3G unit if you are using higher TQ/speed servos. My bud had one out of the case and the power bus is very small. Just an FYI for ya...

Vbar works fine on lower head speeds, you just have to play with the gains. Typically you will get a bobble, not a vibration. I run them on all of my helis and have never gotten a vibe while flying them. I'm kind of curious what the vibe was caused by?
Barry

All helis and planes have an expiration date stamped on them...you only find it after you crash!!

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10-22-2012 04:09 PM  5 years agoPost 24
Krumrick2

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Sao jose dos Campos Brasil

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Be careful with the 3G unit if you are using higher TQ/speed servos. My bud had one out of the case and the power bus is very small. Just an FYI for ya...
Vbar works fine on lower head speeds, you just have to play with the gains. Typically you will get a bobble, not a vibration. I run them on all of my helis and have never gotten a vibe while flying them. I'm kind of curious what the vibe was caused by?
Barry
Hi Barry,

I will be cautious with the 3G advice...thanks for that.

About V-Bar in fact I was thinking in ask you, I know you like and you have lot of experience with the V-Bar in scale helis !.

This is my first V-Bar, i'm good with electronics, so i'm almost sure I did not do anything wrong.

First: i'm using the V-Bar 4.0 ( Black case), the first issue was with the tail servo, no matter what I do I can not make the tail servo work when I move the TX Rudder stick ( need to said, is a second hand unit...and I do not see flying !).

Second: to bypass the tail issue I installed the Futaba 401, the Agility Gain at 35%, Soft control and Gyro gain at 30% to start.

a) without wind the heli is stable in hover, but when I try fast forward curves the heli shake a lot.

IS'T A SHAKE...NOT VIBRATIONS

b) with srong wind (30kms) the heli shake all the time...will post video of that tonight !.

C) I lowered the gain to 10% (minimun)...still I noticed that the V-Bar continue to make corrections in the same maner as 20% or 30%

Did you think this can be a problem with ther V-Bar??...or is a mistake in my mounting ??

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10-22-2012 08:33 PM  5 years agoPost 25
coptercptn

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Mesa AZ. USA

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what I'm seeing in the video looks more like a cyclic gain issue more than a tail problem...? You have a mini porpoise going on which would indicate maybe too much elevator gain? ...Headspeed looks pretty good.

My .02$

Home of the "Sea Cobra".....

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10-23-2012 04:15 AM  5 years agoPost 26
heliadictaholic

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Hobart, Tasmania - Australia

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G'day guys,
Just found this post - great work on the scale head.... I have been trying to get a CNC head made but having problems getting someone to make it. Looks like programming the CNC is a huge task. Having said that, I have someone looking at the job at the moment - fingers crossed..... I have drawn the 3D Model and printed a test head (no flight, just movement tests) on my RapMan 3D printer. Have a look at the pics. If anyone knows other CNC guys - just in case my current contact decides against producing the head, maybe you can provide some details. I would love to get a "mass-produced" CNC head for BT and Gazelle. I have a lathe and a mill but lack the experience to make this head.
I have not 3D scale model the swash - just the head.
Have a look at my pics of my 3D model and my test "print".

One of the pics shows the comparison between my printed head and a SuperScale which I have on my BT at present.....

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10-23-2012 08:49 AM  5 years agoPost 27
Dirt Biter

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Naas, Co. Kildare, ROI.

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Nice job with the RepRap. I always wondered how good it was in re-creating objects as they always show 'Pro' parts in their advertising.

If you have a manual lathe and mill it would be reasonably easy for you to make the parts in aluminium from the dimensions of your printed parts or CAD drawing.

More and more it appears that we scale builders are no longer happy with 'looks good enough' but want detailing that make the rotor head stand out. Manuel's rotor head is still in the rough just now but no doubt it will look the part by the time he has gotten all the bugs ironed out of the build. Lately, I have thrashed out and trashed several designs from the drawing board for what I want and have almost got it right now, just the swash plate to design for the 7 blade head I have in mind.

Plug and play is alright for some applications but good scale just needs that little bit more effort (or $$$$$$$!!) to achieve the final look and in the end it is always worth the effort.

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10-23-2012 12:28 PM  5 years agoPost 28
heliadictaholic

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Hobart, Tasmania - Australia

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Hope I am not "intruding" too much in this post...

G'day "Dirt Biter", The resolution that I used to print the rotor head on my RapMan was set to low resolution. If I set to high resolution, the quality would have been much better, but it would take a long time to print - something like 8 hours for the hub alone. Low resolution - 0.5mm layer thickness - was fine for the test phase.

I think if I were to try to make the parts on the lathe and mill, I would waste a lot of aluminium and time. Yes it would be great to have time and knowledge but for me, not yet..... and at almost 59, might be a bit late to get too serious. I would like to see someone else produce the head with pro CNC gear.

I am in the process of converting my mill to CNC for simpler tasks like frame components etc. I have changed the "X" and "Y" axis to zero backlash (or close to it) ball screws. I have the drives, controllers and power supplies but as for serious tool path programming, I am a long way off that...

Pics show frames being machined "long hand" and assembled parts.

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10-23-2012 01:17 PM  5 years agoPost 29
Krumrick2

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Sao jose dos Campos Brasil

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what I'm seeing in the video looks more like a cyclic gain issue more than a tail problem...? You have a mini porpoise going on which would indicate maybe too much elevator gain? ...Headspeed looks pretty good.
My .02$
Believe me...the tail in the video was difficult to control, the ciclic was OK !.

The shake that is visible I eliminate yesterday simple lowering the Pitch curve a bit.

In fact the Align 3G need less gain in the Elevator than the Aileron.

The flight test of yesterday was really good, but seems that the tail motor overheat after 3/4 minutes and loose power

Will test new motors till weekend and post the new video !.

Regards,
Manuel.
G'day guys,
Just found this post - great work on the scale head.... I have been trying to get a CNC head made but having problems getting someone to make it. Looks like programming the CNC is a huge task. Having said that, I have someone looking at the job at the moment - fingers crossed..... I have drawn the 3D Model and printed a test head (no flight, just movement tests) on my RapMan 3D printer. Have a look at the pics. If anyone knows other CNC guys - just in case my current contact decides against producing the head, maybe you can provide some details. I would love to get a "mass-produced" CNC head for BT and Gazelle. I have a lathe and a mill but lack the experience to make this head.
I have not 3D scale model the swash - just the head.
Have a look at my pics of my 3D model and my test "print".
One of the pics shows the comparison between my printed head and a SuperScale which I have on my BT at present.....
YESSS, it's a fact, make the draws for the CNC is time consuming and expensive.

CNC is good for mass production.

I'm not an expert with lathe and mill, took me two full months to make this head, need to improve some parts, overall i'm happy with the results...and more to see it flying

Manuel

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10-23-2012 05:32 PM  5 years agoPost 30
wingtip

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Indiana

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making the drawings for a cnc shop is not time consuming or expensive at all if he did his cad work in solidworks... it will make up drawings easy peezy... the only expensive part is the shop fees to make the parts...

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10-23-2012 06:09 PM  5 years agoPost 31
Krumrick2

rrApprentice

Sao jose dos Campos Brasil

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making the drawings for a cnc shop is not time consuming or expensive at all if he did his cad work in solidworks... it will make up drawings easy peezy... the only expensive part is the shop fees to make the parts...
I agree with you, but only for experienced guys can be easy.

I'm not bad with computers, I tries CAD softwares but found to time consuming, maybe because is easy to me use the manual tools.

Still thinking in buy or mount my own CNC tool

NOW...when talk about costs for CNC shops

Manuel

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10-23-2012 06:15 PM  5 years agoPost 32
Krumrick2

rrApprentice

Sao jose dos Campos Brasil

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SECOND FLIGHT TEST

This time lot better, moderate wind and the field just for me !

The tail authority improved..BUT ( always a but !) after 4 minutes the tail Fenestron motor star to overheat and loose power.

The First 4 minutes is a pleasure to fly

NOTE THAT IN THE VIDEO THE SHAKE IS ONLY FOR RIGID CONTROL RESPONSES FROM THE ALIGN 3G...STILL WORKING ON THAT !

THERE IS NO VIBRATION IN THE ROTORHEAD OR FENESTRON.

Watch at YouTube

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10-23-2012 06:26 PM  5 years agoPost 33
wingtip

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Indiana

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man that flight would scare me with all that bobbing and tail rpm changes...

has anyone built this kit and drove the tail from the main motor and not using a seperate motor? Curious to the differences in tail authority

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10-23-2012 06:40 PM  5 years agoPost 34
Krumrick2

rrApprentice

Sao jose dos Campos Brasil

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man that flight would scare me with all that bobbing and tail rpm changes...
That actually I solved with a flat throtle curve to the tail motor...still learning about this model rsrsr.

But even with this RPM changes is not bad of tail control, sounds bad but is not !.
has anyone built this kit and drove the tail from the main motor and not using a seperate motor? Curious to the differences in tail authority
Here is a big problem because you need high RPM in the Fenetron to work correctly ( 10.000 to 13.000 RPM's), there is to difficult make a gear box to reach that with the main motor.

I'm working and testing different setups since last week, I mean testing lot of differents setups.

with 12S main motor / 6S tail
with 8S main motor / 4 S tail
Mikado V-Bar
Align 3G

And this week maybe the MicroBeast and new tail motor.

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10-23-2012 06:40 PM  5 years agoPost 35
Keygrigger

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Mississauga, Ont. Canada

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Something tells me that the blade grips are way too tight. I had a similar bobbing happen to my 600 Pro when it had the three blade head on it with low rpm (1000 to 1100) in pod and boom form but it went away with a slight loosening of the grips. Could I recommend a bit more gain on the tail gyro as it looks like it is lagging way behind the movement of the tail. It looks like it will be sorted out shortly and hopefully you get the overheating looked after. Maybe a bit more airflow over the motor? Take care.

Don

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10-23-2012 06:44 PM  5 years agoPost 36
Krumrick2

rrApprentice

Sao jose dos Campos Brasil

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Something tells me that the blade grips are way too tight. I had a similar bobbing happen to my 600 Pro when it had the three blade head on it with low rpm (1000 to 1100) in pod and boom form but it went away with a slight loosening of the grips. Could I recommend a bit more gain on the tail gyro as it looks like it is lagging way behind the movement of the tail. It looks like it will be sorted out shortly and hopefully you get the overheating looked after. Maybe a bit more airflow over the motor? Take care.
Don
I have experience with multiblades, is not relative to the rotorhead and/or blades.

The problem ( I almost sure) is the phasing, note that the links are straight, I think the Align 3G is trying to correct the heli movement and my ciclic inputs, but because the phasing is not right this "shakes" happens...just my thought !

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10-23-2012 07:14 PM  5 years agoPost 37
Havoc

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Ky.

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I've scratch built my own head, tr, and mechanics as well. It's the most enjoyable part of the hobby. At least with The Vbar, the wobble can be too low of electronic gain. It can also be too stiff of mechanical dampening for the head speed.

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10-23-2012 07:18 PM  5 years agoPost 38
sonnyhad

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Holland,Mi

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Wow, truly amazing! I'm going to continue to watch and see how it goes!!!

Bald Pilots usually wear hats!

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10-23-2012 07:25 PM  5 years agoPost 39
Keygrigger

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Mississauga, Ont. Canada

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Since the 3G is not able to correct the phasing electronically, it would make sense that the heli would be bobbing all over the place and quite a handful to fly. You could change to another gyro that has electronic phasing available and keep the linkages scale or phase the existing linkages and loose the scale appearance. I have read where you can rotate the servo operation around so that the pitch would be the elevator, elevator would be the aileron, and aileron would be the pitch. Changing that would be fairly easy but it could still have a phase issue in my opinion, as the servos should only rotate 90 degrees and not 120. Kind of hard to do with 120 degree cyclics, sigh. Maybe a mixing of the servos could be done in the transmitter to perform the same function of moving the linkages 90 degrees from their present position. Hope it works out.

Don

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10-23-2012 07:47 PM  5 years agoPost 40
Dirt Biter

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Naas, Co. Kildare, ROI.

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man that flight would scare me with all that bobbing and tail rpm changes...
I've now got a buttoned cushion on my chair!

Manuel,

that was scary to say the least, if that had been me I would be needing a fibreglass repair kit by now! Glad you got it down in one piece and you know what needs done.

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HelicopterScale Model RC Helicopters Docs  Blue Thunder with custom rotorhead and more !
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