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HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsbavarianDEMON › 450 tail wags to death
01-29-2012 11:57 PM  6 years agoPost 1
ncarbon

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Kalispell Montana

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So no matter what I do, on the 450 pro, the tail wags, higher
the gain the quicker and shorter the wag, lower gain, slow big wag, have played with P and D and I must not understand it!

Any help appreciated.

Ned

It is............what it isn't!

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01-30-2012 12:01 AM  6 years agoPost 2
F1 Rocket

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Melbourne, Florida USA

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Which model HC? What esc? Tail servo? Head speed? Is this a new model or one that was flying well with another setup?

Danny

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01-30-2012 12:19 AM  6 years agoPost 3
RobMcQuillen

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Rochester, NY

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If you are flying a HC3-X or HC3-SX I can send you my setup file, we have this 450 flying very well.

Watch at YouTube

Rob

Rob McQuillen

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01-30-2012 12:20 AM  6 years agoPost 4
ncarbon

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Kalispell Montana

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hc3-sx, cc ice 50 at fixed running 75 flat. DS520 servo. Have tried all the gyro presets. Thanks for your help.

Ned

It is............what it isn't!

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01-30-2012 12:21 AM  6 years agoPost 5
ncarbon

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Kalispell Montana

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File
Please.....send file for review. How far out on servo arm for tail is best?

Ned

It is............what it isn't!

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01-30-2012 12:41 AM  6 years agoPost 6
RobMcQuillen

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Rochester, NY

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PM me your email address and I will send it to you so that you can load it into your tail gyro page and your Rigid page if you wish.

I will check on my tail servo horn tonight

Rob

Rob McQuillen

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01-30-2012 01:07 AM  6 years agoPost 7
F1 Rocket

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Melbourne, Florida USA

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While you are waiting for Rob's file please check for any mechanical binding in the tail linkage and check the condition of the tail blade grip bearings . These are very common causes of tail issues.

Danny

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01-30-2012 01:12 AM  6 years agoPost 8
ncarbon

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Kalispell Montana

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The tail feels good
I have looked, it is smooth. Not sure what to do. As I increase gain things seem better but it wags fast.

Ned

It is............what it isn't!

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01-30-2012 01:24 AM  6 years agoPost 9
GetToDaChopper

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Las Vegas , NV

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I'm running a MKS DS-95i and it's servo arm center to ball is short just 8mm, the shorter arms allow for more servo resolution and more accuracy, but to take advanage of the increased resolution that a shorter servo arm provides you need a faster servo or shall we say quicker servo, all fbl systems usually benefit from increased resolution via shorter servo horns.

i have used this same servo and arm on almost all my helis including my skookum 720's and now my Mini Protos using a HC3-SX and every tail so far has been rock soild, this servo and arm has allowed me to crank the gain way up on everything i've used them on.

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01-30-2012 01:55 AM  6 years agoPost 10
ncarbon

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Kalispell Montana

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Few things
So on the 401 defaults to gy520 things still wag fast, to low of a gain and the tail swings big and rotates around, to high of a gain and short quick wags, one thing I noticed if I lift of without tail input, it is steady, as soon as I touch the yaw, the oscillations begin.

Ned

It is............what it isn't!

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01-30-2012 02:04 AM  6 years agoPost 11
Bell Bloke

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UK

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ncarbon, are you sure that your tail is mechanically ok?
It sounds like you have some binding. Have you varified it with a normal gyro?
Just a thought.
Bell Bloke.

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01-30-2012 02:08 AM  6 years agoPost 12
ncarbon

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Kalispell Montana

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Flew before
I am checking everything....seams smooth, no binding. Trying differnt mounting tape....thanks for your input....

Ned

It is............what it isn't!

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01-30-2012 02:33 AM  6 years agoPost 13
GetToDaChopper

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Las Vegas , NV

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how far out is your servo arm ball ?

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01-30-2012 02:35 AM  6 years agoPost 14
ncarbon

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Kalispell Montana

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Best settings
P and D are maxed gyro gain is 36 percent, it wags a little when I yaw, but stops wagging with no imput or prior to input.

Ned

It is............what it isn't!

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01-30-2012 02:36 AM  6 years agoPost 15
ncarbon

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Kalispell Montana

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Servo arm
it is at 8mm

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01-30-2012 04:11 AM  6 years agoPost 16
JHesel

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Kalispell, Montana - USA

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Summary
It was my helicopter that Ned was working on all after noon today. Thank you Ned for all your help! Yesterday, I tried every thing I could think of including remounting the SX from a side mount to a top mount. Relocating the SX did not improve the wag issues. Ned reset the SX to factory defaults and we went through the set up again, and yes, Ned did change a few of the settings, but even after going through the set up again, the wag persisted. We tried remounting the SX on different tapes which seemed to help, but the wag persists. We tried a different tail servo. Numerous P and D settings were tried at various gain settings. Some combinations made things worse and some better, but none stopped the wag altogether. I think we ended tonight at 90% throttle and at max P and max D with the gain about 60% on the factory thin tape. This resulted in a helicopter that is almost flyable, but still not acceptable. The strangest observation was that the tail would hold upon lift off until Ned gave it any input and then it would begin to wag once again. The tail almost always seemed to be holding during pitch pumps, and often, the wags just kept on wagging away during the pitch pump. I would agree that the tail seemed mechanically smooth yesterday and most of today; although, it now seems to have slop after hours and hours of testing while wagging severely. I will change out the tail parts tomorrow to take out the slop and try again. The components in the tail do not have more than 20 flights on them, and operated very smoothly with no slop or binding prior to the end of the day today. Overall, the helicopter seems to be extremely smooth regardless of head speed. Thank you to everyone for your help.

Ned - please feel free to correct me if my summary is in error, or to add anything I forgot. We spent so much time on it that I'm sure I forgot something important! And thanks again Ned for all your time and help!

Jon

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01-30-2012 05:44 AM  6 years agoPost 17
GetToDaChopper

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Las Vegas , NV

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you know i seem to recall something like this and it turned out to be the tail servo, do you or someone you know have a dif servo you could try ?

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01-30-2012 08:52 AM  6 years agoPost 18
DEMONjoe

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Germany

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As you mounted the unit in different ways, I am sure it is not any defect of the unit (gyros), as if you mount it e.g. vertical, another internal gyro is set for the yaw control. So if you did vertical and horizontal mounting, the unit surely is fine. That's what I can tell. All the rest is said already.

Joachim

CAPTRON Electronic GmbH
- bavarianDEMON/HeliCommand Support Team -

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01-30-2012 01:26 PM  6 years agoPost 19
Tyler

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Chicagoland area

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I was experiencing the exact same symptoms and discovered that my tail boom was slightly twisting in the boom carrier. It was solid upon first inspection but the forces of the tail blades in flight certainly allowed it to twist back and forth. It held during a hover. It would swim during backwards flight. Swim like a fish tail not wag like a high gain setting.

Cranking down the boom carrier didn't do the trick so I shimmed the boom lightly to gain diameter. Now the boom is secure.

Enjoy things that money can buy IF you don't lose the things money can't buy.

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01-30-2012 02:23 PM  6 years agoPost 20
JHesel

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Kalispell, Montana - USA

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Thanks
Thank you for your ideas. I will try a higher head speed and shim the tail boom. We tried a different tail servo but it had no significant effect. The main rotor seem very stable at 50% gain. It is just the tail that is an issue. I may move the HC3-SX to heli that flys successfully with a Beastx and put the Beastx on the 450 to what we can learn from the results. Thanks again everyone!

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HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsbavarianDEMON › 450 tail wags to death
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