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HelicopterScale Model RC Helicopters › Gears, Gears and more Gears!
01-25-2012 05:12 PM  6 years agoPost 1
Dirt Biter

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Naas, Co. Kildare, ROI.

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In order to get as realistic as possible on the CH53E build has entailed a lot of headaches as to how to achieve the desired result culminating in this Frankenstein monster of a transmission headache as shown in C.

A TT Pod and Boom is generally as in A, with some manufacturers taking a horizontal drive direct from the top of the tail gear and reducing the losses by eliminating a set of gears.

The gear train as in B would be if I did not want to incorporate the hinging mechanism and it would also lessen the all up weight but being a glutton for punishment I am going with C!

What I am looking for is how to calculate the power loss to the tail rotor and with this swinging a 7 blade head along with the 4 blade tail rotor, how much more of a power requirement will be needed in the motor selection. All up weight is going to be approaching 12lbs

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01-25-2012 05:28 PM  6 years agoPost 2
Dr.Tim

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Mojave Desert

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I don't know what you are trying to do? I think I would do away with all those gears and go with a flex-drive .. Simple and it keeps things out of the way ...

From Simple minds come simple ideas! Approach Engineering

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01-25-2012 05:29 PM  6 years agoPost 3
Havoc

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Ky.

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+1 on the flex drive.

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01-25-2012 06:27 PM  6 years agoPost 4
coptercptn

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Mesa AZ. USA

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yeah Guys I have been in on this with Dirtbiter from the get go.. What he is trying to do is emulate the actual Tail fold on the Prototype 53....
An envious task at best!.. If he succeeds it will be way cool.. but very heavy in the tail section.... and the possibility of failure is really escalated......
I sent him some shots of my (real) 53 tail section and I know he has found other documentaion.. I think what he is looking for here is a mechanical design that will work?

But after looking at what he is presented,... I'm confused as to what he needs?

Home of the "Sea Cobra".....

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01-25-2012 07:04 PM  6 years agoPost 5
Dr.Tim

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Mojave Desert

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A Stomp on the Foot!
A Poke in the Eye!

If this is for display then go ahead with the folding tail but for flight he may need to rethink this ...

From Simple minds come simple ideas! Approach Engineering

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01-25-2012 07:29 PM  6 years agoPost 6
coptercptn

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Mesa AZ. USA

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yep ..I've been telling him that Tim... especially for the size he is building... LOTS of weight on the tail, that has to be dealt with. Not to mention the reliability issues with a complex mechanism that is "One Off"...

But I say "more power to him if he can pull it off".. I know I won't be doing it on my Turbine...

Home of the "Sea Cobra".....

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01-28-2012 03:34 AM  6 years agoPost 7
Chuck Bole

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Tulsa Ok. U.S.A.

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What about a seperate drive for the tail altogether? Not sure if we're talking about a turbine or electric machine. Mabey a motor mounted either on the tail, or in the boom with a dedicated ESC and battery? I did something similar to what Minicopter did with the Joker3DD. But on a Synergy E9 conversion a few years ago..

chuck

Team Synergy Field Representative / Thunder Power

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01-28-2012 03:48 AM  6 years agoPost 8
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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Exactly what full scale helicopter are you trying to build a model of?

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01-28-2012 03:52 AM  6 years agoPost 9
Chuck Bole

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Tulsa Ok. U.S.A.

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If i read the post right.
chuck

Team Synergy Field Representative / Thunder Power

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01-28-2012 03:55 AM  6 years agoPost 10
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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Ah a Sikorsky. I see. Is the tail transmission really that complicated? Seems like it would be extremely dangerous to design it that way.

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01-28-2012 03:24 PM  6 years agoPost 11
coptercptn

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Mesa AZ. USA

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yes it is that complicated...well actually not really.. but the 53's are designed for folding blades and tail for shipboard storage (mandated by Navy and Marine corps) So, in order for the tail assy to fold in on it's self, a linkage/gear mechism is built in place. It works like the sycros on a manual transmission. What happens is, when the tail unfolds, two gears mate with each other. these are on the main body (tail drive shaft) and on the folding part of the tail assy. (also on the tail drive shaft going to the angled gearbox). Once these gears mesh, a sleeve slides over to positively lock the tail drive shaft.
At this same time positive locking pins drive in (hydraulically) and lock the tail fuse section. There is also a flag that hangs down under the fuse that tells you (visually) the locks are in.. or not. This is all done electronically (through hydraulics) from the cockpit. It also aligns the rotor head and folds the blades down along the fuselage sides (first).
This is the system Dirtbiter wants to emulate on his model.. A very ambitious undertaking at best!!

This is a pic of the tail section (sorry not a good shot of the gears/locking mechanics on my "1 to 1" scale 53...
If I get a chance, I will take a pic of the fuse side and post it...

Home of the "Sea Cobra".....

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01-28-2012 07:41 PM  6 years agoPost 12
Dirt Biter

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Naas, Co. Kildare, ROI.

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This is what coptercptn was talking about

I just found this today after months of looking, now I can finalise my drawings at last!

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01-28-2012 08:20 PM  6 years agoPost 13
coptercptn

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Mesa AZ. USA

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yes the whole proble is going to be how to engineer the locking sleeve. the rest shouldn't be that big of a problem..(except fot the weight)

I'll try to get out next week and shoot a few "up close and personal" shots of the Fuse side of the locks...

Home of the "Sea Cobra".....

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01-28-2012 09:16 PM  6 years agoPost 14
Mojave

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Palos Verdes, Ca. USA

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OK, here's my .02 You mount one of Dr Tims flex drives from the folding tail bulkhead/joint to the tail gearbox. On the front of that drive you use a vario claw connector. On the drive side (mechs)you run the other half of the flex drive from the mechs to the fuse side of the bulkhead. As you open/fold the tail to the stowed position, the claw seperates. When you fold the tail to the closed/flight position, you engage the claw connector. You may need to modify the claw connectors a bit to allow the smooth meshing of the 2 and may need to add a tad more clearance between them, but I think it's very do-able and that is how I would approach it. You would also need to clock the connectors properly before closing the tail, but that's no biggie. This would simplify the system and won't contribute to the weight problem. No calling Jenny Craig on this one...
Barry

All helis and planes have an expiration date stamped on them...you only find it after you crash!!

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01-30-2012 09:48 AM  6 years agoPost 15
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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A folding tail. I had no idea. That will be quite the undertaking to emulate in a model. I look forward to seeing what you are able to come up with.

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01-30-2012 01:45 PM  6 years agoPost 16
Havoc

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Ky.

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Might not be useful but this is a photo I took in Huntington, Wv. They were on their way to California.

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01-30-2012 03:08 PM  6 years agoPost 17
Dr.Tim

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Mojave Desert

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Barry, thats a good Idea but I would use the DogBone coupler in place of the claw.

From Simple minds come simple ideas! Approach Engineering

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01-30-2012 05:24 PM  6 years agoPost 18
Mojave

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Palos Verdes, Ca. USA

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Hi Tim, yeah either way. But the dogbone may require the tail to have a folding double hinge, due it being a socket type of drive. The claw might pivot into position a little easier. Either way, I can't wait to see what he comes up with. I love science projects
Barry

All helis and planes have an expiration date stamped on them...you only find it after you crash!!

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01-30-2012 05:47 PM  6 years agoPost 19
coptercptn

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Mesa AZ. USA

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I was thinking something more along the line of what the prototype actually uses... it would mean making the pieces (more than likely) but then it would be more positive locking and reliable without the difficulty of trying to align two teeth or a claw set-up. I'm thinking male female gearing that interlocks with an outside splined sleeve.

OK all you Machinists.. let's see some pics?

I'll try to post something later in the week.. (really busy right now with some realestate transactions etc.)

Home of the "Sea Cobra".....

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01-31-2012 01:33 AM  6 years agoPost 20
reaper31

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Littleton, CO, usa

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i would run a flex drive from from the mechanics to whatever contraption you have designed to emulate the connector on the hinge point. then run a drive up the tail to the gear box.
a lot less parts to break. might be lighter as well.

edit: looks like mohave had the same idea...nevermind

Robbert De Bock

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HelicopterScale Model RC Helicopters › Gears, Gears and more Gears!
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