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HelicopterMain Discussion › FBL - underwhelming performance so far...
12-19-2011 02:19 AM  5 years agoPost 41
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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FBl units are fairly new and are always evolving, but it seems more like your bias coming into this has hindered your ability to set up the beast properly which includes doing things that you wouldnt do for a flybar heli.
In what way did I not setup my beastx properly? And, again, in what way is my heli "non-mechanically sound"? Please be specific about what I did wrong in setting up my BeastX and heli.
You are the first i have ever heard of someone who has tried fbl and went back to fb bc of dissatisfaction. Either your right and fbl has a long way to go or everyone else is wrong?
There's actually a lot of us. That you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist. F3C style pilots, for example, almost all still universally prefer FB because it still works better in the hovering maneuvers. Not that that gap won't close with advancing technology, but that's still true at least for the most part. Tho I believe Ben Minor has gotten his CGY 750 dialed in pretty well on an F3C machine.

And like I said, now that I've directly compared my 700E with a FBL and FB setup, the FB is definitely more precise with a lower pilot workload in the hover.

LS

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12-19-2011 02:16 PM  5 years agoPost 42
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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BTW, and I mentioned this in the other thread I started, but credit has to go where credit is due. My BeastX is working fantastic as a tail-only gyro on this same machine (with the FB head back in it). It's easily as steady and smooth as my GY701 in F3C mode. And that's with the tail dynamic pot at the factory setting.

It's worth the cost just as a tail gyro alone (even if it didn't work on my machine as a 3-axis gyro)...

LS

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12-20-2011 08:10 AM  5 years agoPost 43
KC

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WA

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Youre not the only FBL retrovert, more power to you

Guys don't get it, in hovering, FBL is like asking someone who has been around for all the HH gyros to go back to a CSM 360 and forget the other stuff happened.

Mechanical flybar is generations past FBL when it comes to hovering. MFS (Minicopter, Henesleit), the latest thing at a mere decade old are like candy in a hover compared to a VBAR.

Anyways its the same as the autofocus camera game. Predictive AF or "fuzzy logic" was all the rage in the early 90s and touted as being able to do all sorts of things that any old salt manual focus photographer could do better with old crap than the electronics could attempt.

twenty years later, autofocus cameras have arrived and the only good manual cameras left have a little red circle on them and cost as much as a car, the rest are old and worn out.

The strides in autofocus and the strides in HH roughly paced one another because the concepts and engineering required to make a camera hold focus or a tail hold heading are very similar.

I think youre right, in time Flybar will be history and people won't get it, but they already don't and its always been something of a dark art to tune a flybar head.

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12-20-2011 01:42 PM  5 years agoPost 44
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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I think youre right, in time Flybar will be history and people won't get it, but they already don't and its always been something of a dark art to tune a flybar head.
That's probably partly why FB is on its way to extinction. The BeastX, despite my problems with it, was really a joy to setup. Once I got used to navigating the menus (and redid it once or twice), I could completely set it up in about 20 minutes. At that point, it flew I'd say 95% as good as it was ever going to fly (the other 5% I could probably have gained with the gain/feedthrough/tail adjustments and the advanced menus). The other FBL units are going to be generally similar.

A FB, tho, is a mechanical device and as such is a bit harder to fiddle with. If I really wanted to get anal about it, I'd put the F3C mixers on my heads and try different length flybars, etc. The dinking about with it could go on for ages.

And then there's the 3D trend - if you want your heli to fly like a fly avoiding a flyswatter, FBL probably has the edge there. I remember all the little odd interactions and such with the FB were basically gone with FBL. It climbed in a perfectly straight line, came down in a straight line, piro'ed perfectly still, etc.

I'm fairly close to that with my FB as it is, but it'd be a lot more work to match a FBL.

So I don't discount the advantages of FBL, they're real and are still intriguing for me. I may try it again at some point, hopefully with a different unit that doesn't try to tump the machine over .

But yes for stability in the hover, FBL isn't quite There Yet compared to FB.

I also noticed it fighting cyclic stability a bit when doing hovering autos. Another advantage of FB is how the rotor disk becomes more stable in cyclic as it slows down. So at the bottom of an auto, for example, it becomes harder to perturb as the rotor speed bleeds off. I remember the BeastX trying to maintain the same stability at lower rotor speeds in a hovering auto, putting in more and more control inputs in order to keep its attitude.

I prefer the FB response here too - you can custom tailor the amount of stability you want in cyclic simply by varying the headspeed. IMO, this is a really nice advantage for different flight regimes. For fly-swatter/heli-hatin'-life flying, just bump up the rotor speed. For stability, knock it down a bit.

And maybe as FBL tech advances, they'll be able to emulate this kind of thing too. They may already be able to do this somewhat, but I think these are static settings - i.e. you have to twiddle a pot or hook up the laptop to change it. Perhaps this will be a dynamic setting later on as the software comes out of the stone age .

But I think we're getting close to the day when we won't have a choice anymore and we'll have to go FBL. AT that point, I'll reevaluate it and decide if I'm even going to remain in the hobby. If FBL tech is where it is now, I'll probably just get out of it and go back to flying full scale like I did the last time I exited the hobby.

But as long as I can still get parts for my FB's, I think I"m going to stick with that, at least for my main machines. Maybe I'll keep a FBL around to screw around with in the meanwhile...

LS

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12-20-2011 02:57 PM  5 years agoPost 45
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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Hey, I'll make this simple. Flybars suck!

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12-20-2011 03:07 PM  5 years agoPost 46
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Hey, I'll make this simple. Flybars suck!
I think they blow, actually....

LS

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12-20-2011 06:47 PM  5 years agoPost 47
rexxigpilot

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Florida

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I think they blow, actually....
That depends on which side of the paddle you're on.

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12-20-2011 08:49 PM  5 years agoPost 48
KC

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WA

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good luck

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12-20-2011 10:06 PM  5 years agoPost 49
Genty

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Scottish Borders

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I'm with you unclejane. I would far rather fly than fart about trying to find minute vibes and repairing heli's that crashed through no fault in my flying ability. Why should it be necessary to swap out clutch stacks and bearings etc here there and everywhere. My Beast X initially flew fine for several months then decided one day to roll continually without being commanded and wouldn't stop. I hit throttle hold but it still did considerable damage to the heli. I returned the Beast X to the supplier to get it checked by Freakware. That was on 28 August. I finally got it back on 12 November after frequent calls and e-mails to find out why it was taking so long. The unit was deemed to be okay following Freakware's inspection. If I hadn't had a gyro and flybar head to fit while it was away, it would have wiped out 78 days at the best flying time of the year. I've had as much as I can take from FBL. Another plus for FB - the Rx lipo I used with the Beast gave me 3 - 4 flights between charges - since converting back to FB I get 8 - 9 flights.

T- Rex 600N Pro, T-Rex 600N Pro, T-Rex 550e

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12-21-2011 03:03 PM  5 years agoPost 50
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Why should it be necessary to swap out clutch stacks and bearings etc here there and everywhere.
Usually it isn't. That just what guys who don't really know what's wrong with your heli or how to troubleshoot a vibration problem just tell you to do by default. That's what my "non-mechanically sound" guy was trying to pull on me earlier in the thread, for example (seems he's given up after my insistence that he be specific).

It's what I call the Good Luck method of heli setup - try this and that and hope something works. Now, that method actually does have merit since a lot of this really _is_ trial and error, but it has to be at least somewhat directed and based on some idea of what the symptoms are on your current heli.

Sometimes the clutch and bearings are the culprit and sometimes they're not. But you have to make at least some initial observations first before trying it (if you don't want to go broke replacing perfectly good parts with other perfectly good parts that is).

On my 700E, the symptom was too destructive for me to keep trying to troubleshoot the problem. If it were something like a drift I could carry on, but throwing the machine on the ground kind of prevents you from really working the problem out .

I may, repeat _may_... try it again on this machine with a CGY 750 (my radio is an 8FG so it's a natural choice). GrandRC has em on sale so I'm highly tempted....

LS

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12-21-2011 03:15 PM  5 years agoPost 51
rexxigpilot

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Florida

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I've used many different FBL systems. The Futaba CGY750 is the best for vibration resistance. And since that IS the problem with your heli, you will be doing yourself a favor to try it.

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12-21-2011 03:24 PM  5 years agoPost 52
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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I've used many different FBL systems. The Futaba CGY750 is the best for vibration resistance. And since that IS the problem with your heli, you will be doing yourself a favor to try it.
My thoughts exactly. Like I said earlier, I have a GY701 on my nitro, which buzzes much harder than any electric and it's about as perfect on the tail as you can get. I have the sensor hard mounted with a piece of firm plastic double-stick foam from the hardware store (the little squares you use to stick photos on the wall, etc) and it's been perfect from day one.

And I still have all the balls in the inner holes on the electric from when I tried the MB.... slowly talking myself into it, you see ....

And I still have the nitro as my main machine; the electric is my beater/will-never-get-another-one-of-these-again heli, so it's a good experimentation platform...

LS

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12-21-2011 03:33 PM  5 years agoPost 53
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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It rocks!

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12-21-2011 05:33 PM  5 years agoPost 54
steve9534

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yakima, wa.

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FBL

Not everyone is as enthralled with the performance of the FBL controllers as you might gather from the cheerleaders here. I've used three different units and currently have a BeastX. They all have had the same tendency to over control in low head speed situations and/or when near or on the ground. They just don't know how to react when the skids are touching the ground and tend to continue giving more and more cyclic until they overcome the resistance of the skids and tip the heli over. They also have all been unstable at low head speeds. It seems they are trying to duplicate the same roll or fore/aft cyclic rate at low speeds as one would have at a high head speed and tend to over control the cyclics. Finally, they all add more or less lag into the control system and leave one with a feeling of being disconnected from the heli similar to using an old, high latency radio system. The Beast works pretty good on the electric Trex600, but I'm flying it less and putting less time on it now that it's FBL than when it had the FB. Steve.

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12-21-2011 06:55 PM  5 years agoPost 55
Bob Wales (RIP)

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Lebanon CT

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To each his own on the FB vs. FBL .
I personally enjoy the feeling of FBL on my Logo600 and my Trex700 nitro.
I had a friend that wanted to try out FBL and he bought the Beastx which I have no experience with. He put this on his Trex700 nitro and didn't like the feel of it as it had the tendency of wanting to roll left on his machine. After the third flight with adjustments being made along the way it rolled itself into the ground.

He has given up on it and given it to me and I put it on a Trex500 I had laying around and it flies good but not as good as my Vbar.

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12-21-2011 08:11 PM  5 years agoPost 56
unclejane

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santa fe, NM, USA

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Seems like the BX really favors that left side - all of us seem to be reporting some sort of problem with it going to the left?

I do think I"m going to have a go on my 700E with the 750. Otherwise my 700E is just going to sit in the living room collecting dust and the nitro will get all the flying time. This will give it something to do....

If it doesn't work with the 750, I'll just sell the sucker and use the funds for another nitro + OS 105....

LS

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12-21-2011 09:44 PM  5 years agoPost 57
Phaedrus

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S. Orange County,​California

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FWIW I just set up my first FBL. A Trex 550E using the Futaba CGY-750 FBL gyro. The first flight was uneventful with the exception of some very "lively" control throws. Tamed tho down, and it flies great now. No bad habits, servos are barely warm after a flight and I am really liking the feel. For me it makes my heli fly in a more predictable manner. Sort of like flying a pattern plane as compared to a trainer plane. Very "locked in" on the feel.

I'll be converting my other 550E from FB to FBL right after the first of the year.

AMA Leader Member
Go FASST, or Go Home!!
Team Futaba

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12-21-2011 10:37 PM  5 years agoPost 58
steve9534

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yakima, wa.

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FBL

Mine doesn't seem to care which direction it goes, it just wants to overcontrol the heli when the thing is low enough for the skids to touch the ground or when the head speed slows down. I've taken to just running it up and popping off the ground quickly, and then setting it down quickly when landing. The problem is most pronounced at the bottom of autos. I love doing autos, so it's a significant limitation for me personally. Flying around is fine and it does track better with fewer corrections needed than with the FB. I really don't have much problem with hovering mine, and it's at least as stable as it was with the FB. Everyone wants something a little different I guess, but I'm hoping that the next generation will be better. Right now it's an extra $200.00 to $400.00 cost that I don't especially need when putting together a heli, and they generally sit somewhere near the front where it would be easy to destroy the unit in a crash, adding that much again to the cost of repairs. Steve.

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12-22-2011 03:13 AM  5 years agoPost 59
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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and they generally sit somewhere near the front where it would be easy to destroy the unit in a crash, adding that much again to the cost of repairs. Steve.
All but one of mine are mounted behind the main mast. The V-bar on my Logo 600 survived a rather hard crash that left 10 fractures/breaks in the frame. The V-Bar appears to be fairly robust. I did wipe out the amp on a Futaba GY611 once during a hard crash. That was a $300 hurt by itself, so I understand your concern.

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12-22-2011 03:20 AM  5 years agoPost 60
steve9534

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yakima, wa.

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Rexxi

I'm not completely against FBL, I just want one that will behave itself when taking off and landing, or at the very end of an auto. I haven't used a Futaba or Vbar, so maybe they have overcome this problem. After the experiences I've had with the first 3 brands, I haven't been excited to bury another $750.00 or so to test these two out. Maybe someone else can comment on their experiences with them, but from what I've seen and read, it looks like they have similar problems. Steve.

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