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HelicopterRadio - Spektrum DSM › Sudden and un-commanded servo movement
12-12-2011 10:37 PM  5 years agoPost 1
pgoelz

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Rochester MI

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I am starting a new thread specifically to collect people's experiences with Spektrum systems and sudden, un-commanded servo movement. This has happened to me twice while flying my Trex 450 indoors (once with an older AR6100 and once with a newer AR6200) and I am seeing and hearing about others it has happened to. In a lengthy conversation with Spektrum today, they maintain that the uncommanded servo movement is simply a function of the crowded RF environment during indoor flying sessions, or a defect in my transmitter. While I agree that indoor flying is a very challenging environment, the Spektrum system has always been presented to us as incapable of producing un-commanded servo movement. Corrupted data or good data from a transmitter other than the one the receiver was bound to is not supposed to be capable of moving the servos. The worst it can do is slow the response or cause a hold in place. My transmitter could be defective but it only happens indoors. It has performed flawlessly outdoors for years.

In my case, the collective abruptly went full negative in flight. Full negative is my failsafe position, but failsafe is only supposed to be invoked during boot, not after connect.

The OP in this thread also seems to be reporting uncommanded full negative collective.

During casual conversation in the hobby shop today while buying an AR6210 to replace my AR6200, the shop owner reported the identical issue with his Blade 400 (unknown receiver). In his case, the full negative was sudden and uncommanded but brief enough that the heli bounced off the floor and he recovered.

So that is three separate people and four incidents that I know of. Are there others? I'd like to hear from anyone with a similar issue. I am trying to figure out if this is really a systemic issue. If so, Horizon / Spektrum need to know because it is also a safety issue.

I am not a Spektrum basher. I LIKE my Spektrum system. But there seems to be something to this, and I can't seem to get Spektrum to pay attention.

Discussion? Anyone else?

Paul

Paul Goelz
Rochester MI USA
http://www.pgoelz.com

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12-12-2011 11:02 PM  5 years agoPost 2
blissinindy

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Indianapolis,​Indiana - USA

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Paul,

relative newbie here, but can't failsafe be invoked when:

a) Connection w/ the Tx has been lost.
b) Brownout/loss of power and reboot as you say.

I had a bad ESC and was experiencing Brownouts (could tell by the blinking LED on my Rx). I also had old firmware on my Rx, so the reboot time was several seconds. Not fun!! I sent my Rx in for checkout and firmware update - Horizon did both for free, replaced my ESC (yeah it took a bit to isolate down to that) and have been okay.

Bear with the newbie here :-), but are you sure you are not experiencing one of the above? Is your Rx light steady?

What Tx are you using btw? I did see quite a few complaints when the Dx8s first came out (before the recall), but (at least personally) I have not seen many recently ...

Regards,

Bryan
blissinindy@yahoo.com

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12-12-2011 11:57 PM  5 years agoPost 3
pgoelz

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Rochester MI

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It is a common mis-conception that failsafe is invoked on signal loss and/or brownout. All documentation available to me (born out by my own testing) states that during signal loss after initial connect, the servos hold in place and after one second, the throttle channel goes to zero. Failsafe is only invoked during boot, before signal acquisition.

I am not entirely sure about a brownout though. During the brownout, I have to assume that all channels are un-driven because the receiver is not operational. That would not produce a full travel servo excursion. However, I am not as sure about what happens in the brief period after power is restored and before rapid reconnect. I will have to do some testing to see if failsafe is actually invoked after a brownout and before re-connect. But if this really was a brownout, it doesn't quite make sense. In both cases that happened to me, I was not doing any stick bashing at all. Far from it.... in one case I was in very slow hovering forward flight and in the other, I was on the ground. In both cases, the only servo that might have been moving was the tail.

Paul

Paul Goelz
Rochester MI USA
http://www.pgoelz.com

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12-13-2011 12:31 AM  5 years agoPost 4
Dood

rrProfessor

Wescanson

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This has happened to me twice while flying my Trex 450 indoors
You can stop right there. That's all we need to know. Lots of people have had issues with Spektrum indoors, including me!

I've had many problems while flying different models, varying from small indoor electric helicopters to Parkzone "Bind and Fly" planes on Spektrum when flying indoors exactly as you describe them.
simply a function of the crowded RF environment during indoor flying sessions
When it has happened to me on several occasions, I was one of 2 or 3 flying in the gym at the time. More than once I recall I was the only person flying. No transmitters in the pits were turned on.

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12-13-2011 12:46 AM  5 years agoPost 5
pgoelz

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Rochester MI

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What I am interested in specifically are reports of uncommanded servo movement. Other issues can be explained away but the servos are not supposed to be able to move unless YOUR transmitter tells them to. Regardless of the environment.

Paul

Paul Goelz
Rochester MI USA
http://www.pgoelz.com

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12-13-2011 04:53 AM  5 years agoPost 6
blissinindy

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Indianapolis,​Indiana - USA

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It is a common mis-conception that failsafe is invoked on signal loss and/or brownout. All documentation available to me (born out by my own testing) states that during signal loss after initial connect, the servos hold in place and after one second, the throttle channel goes to zero. Failsafe is only invoked during boot, before signal acquisition ...

I am not entirely sure about a brownout though. During the brownout, I have to assume that all channels are un-driven because the receiver is not operational. That would not produce a full travel servo excursion. However, I am not as sure about what happens in the brief period after power is restored and before rapid reconnect ...

Paul
Hmmm ... Not quite my understanding. Have to check my sources again - I'm going to learn something - love it!!

Looking at a few newish Spektrum Rx manuals (like the AR9000 for example), I see newer receivers have what Spektrum calls call SmartSafe, which works exactly as you describe upon loss of signal - only throttle goes low. Have to look into the older receivers like I am flying (all have had firmware updated though, so I am not sure that is an issue)... Upon powerup however - like return from brownout (I would assume) what I read in the newish manuals is

"When the receiver only is turned on (no transmitter signal is present), all servos except for the throttle are driven to their preset fail-safe positions, normally control surfaces at neutral and the landing gear down."

With my ESC, I wasn't experiencing an LVC, I was experiencing a brownout and since I hadn't updated my firmware, I was experiencing this for a second or more and since the guy helping me had bound at about 3/4 throttle (?) things got a bit exciting (3/4 throttle, all other controls back on center, untrimmed) when the power came back up ... Newer firmware recovers in 4ms (faster than the typical Tx/Rx frame rate I believe), so I am not sure what you would experience. Not your symptoms certainly, so I stand corrected. Have to do some reading and learn ... :-)

What Rx are you flying?

As far as flying indoors - I am a relative newbie, but friends of mine and myself fly indoors almost every Saturday during the winter months (roughly mid October through March). Almost everyone flies 2.4 and almost all of those are Spektrum or JR, the vast majority DSM2, not DSMX. Metal support structures - indoor baseball field, large indoor gym, etc. I think one roof is metal ... 15 to 20 flyers around, not all flying at once of course, but more radios on than planes in the air ... In two years, I have not heard a single complaint of uncommanded servo movement. Was at the JR Indoor this year - several hundred flyers - again, heard no such complaints - of course its much harder to poll everyone there ... I did see reports of such from folks early in the DX8 release cycle - most indoors, all third hand.

As another data point, I have a friend who is on his third Habu. Each went in w/ one or more servos locked hard over w/ no ability to override. This could be seen post crash. He was using a new Dx8 and a Dx7 he had been using for years. He is a very experienced flyer and I believe what he said. So did Horizon - both Habus were replaced. My understanding is - it was an acknowledged servo problem!! After the second crash, he replaced the stock servos on the last Habu and its been good for several months ... My point is, if we're going to research this, I'm thinking we should probably get radio info (including serial # and whether its been updated), rx, servos, ESC/BEC to look for correlations? Make any sense? ...

Regards,

Bryan

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12-13-2011 12:14 PM  5 years agoPost 7
pgoelz

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Rochester MI

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Check my first post. The first receiver (the one that actually crashed) was a version 1.2 AR6100. The second receiver (the one that went full negative on the ground) was an AR6200 of unknown version.

The transmitter is a DX7 that I have flown without incident for years, and on about 10 different aircraft. It continues to operate flawlessly with the exception of these two incidents. While I cannot rule out that the transmitter actually sent a full negative pitch signal accompanied by a non-zero throttle signal, I seriously doubt it.

All my receivers are going back for firmware update "just in case". In the interim I will be flying the Trex with a brand new AR6210. I am very tempted to pick up a new DX8 for a "clean sweep" but I can't justify it... yet. I like the DX7.

No point in collecting serial numbers at this point. I am merely trying to find out if this is happening to anyone else. If it is more than me, then yes.... we'll start trying to correlate it. So far I know of one other person it has happened to in the same location.

It is interesting to note that in my conversation with an RF tech at Horizon yesterday, he insisted that my version 1.2 receivers were the original firmware version and did NOT include the fix for an issue that caused sudden negative elevator (collective?) under some unspecified circumstances. However, in trying to research this issue I see that version 1.2 WAS the fix. But I also turned up a report of the same full negative collective episode on version 1.2. I am still trying to find a description of that issue and how to reproduce it. If this is because I have old faulty firmware, problem solved.

Another possible explanation would be a brief reboot. I have to wonder if in extreme RF situations with poor or degraded signals, the firmware is required to work overtime to process the degraded signals and eventually crashes. If the firmware includes a watchdog timer, it would then reboot. During the reboot, it would go to failsafe. The only thing that scenario does not explain is the continued motor operation that I experienced both times. After the crash, I immediately lowered the collective (I was in normal mode) and the motor continued to run for a couple seconds at least. I then hit throttle hold and it shut off. I am not sure if it actually responded to throttle hold or simply took that long to reconnect and obey the transmitter. That receiver did NOT have rapid reconnect. However, the throttle channel is supposed to be un-driven during boot.....

For background, see THIS THREAD for a description of a similar issue. He is describing a full down elevator instead of collective, but in my CCPM setup, elevator is one of the three signals used for collective so who knows.....

Paul

Paul Goelz
Rochester MI USA
http://www.pgoelz.com

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12-13-2011 02:49 PM  5 years agoPost 8
blissinindy

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Indianapolis,​Indiana - USA

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Great info Paul - thanks for educating me!!

Perhaps another call to Horizon would yield more info? Someone must have more details on the uncommanded elevator down problem and the fix as well as more details on startup/re-start processing - maybe a whitepaper? Of course getting to such a person is a trick :-)

Will be interesting to see what others report!! I am flying AR7000s w/ sats on my 450 and 500 (cautious), but a smaller rx on my 250, forget which one at the moment, have to look ... No problems to report (yet) since I replaced my ESC and updated firmware :-)

Regards,

Bryan

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12-13-2011 02:57 PM  5 years agoPost 9
Ronald Thomas

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Gainesville, Fl, USA

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450 pro?

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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12-13-2011 08:29 PM  5 years agoPost 10
pgoelz

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Rochester MI

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It was all I could do to speak with the RF tech I did reach. The product support rep was reluctant to pass me on but did eventually. I apparently have no access to anyone with detailed internal knowledge of the system or the software. If the RF tech I eventually spoke with did have that knowledge he was unwilling to share it with me. I asked over and over if it was possible for anything except my transmitter to command a servo to move and he never directly answered the question. He kept trying to deflect the question into suspecting anything BUT the software. Eventually it started feeling like there might be a reason he didn't answer it, but that is just a suspicion. I keep coming back to the absolute fact that my servos did something that should not be possible given what we are being told about how the system works. The best he could offer was to suspect my transmitter. But it is my only transmitter and has never hiccupped before or after the incidents. It continues to operate flawlessly on any model I fly.

As I piece this together, both suspected receivers (and one in my IFO that has had what appear to be brief down elevator excursions) are either unmarked (and old) or marked V1.2. I do have a V1.6 AR6100 but until today it has not flown indoors. I flew it indoors today without incident. So it is at least possible that V1.2 has some residual issues that we were never told about. V1.6 supposedly replaced V1.2 just to add rapid reconnect.

I replaced the AR6200 that replaced the AR6100 in the crashed Trex today with an AR6210 and it flew flawlessly, and also produced a VERY long range test indoors with maybe 15 transmitters on.

"450 Pro" ???? Whatcha mean? The heli in question is a Trex 450SE in a Hughes body. I have flown it without incident for many years.

Paul

Paul Goelz
Rochester MI USA
http://www.pgoelz.com

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12-13-2011 08:58 PM  5 years agoPost 11
Ronald Thomas

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Gainesville, Fl, USA

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Tail belt driven....have you ruled out static hits??? When was the last time you lubed the belt? Did you do a static mod???

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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12-13-2011 09:07 PM  5 years agoPost 12
pgoelz

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Rochester MI

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Yes, it is tail belt driven and no, I have not ruled out static discharges. I had not lubed the belt in a while when it crashed. I have not done a static mod.... what mod are you referring to? The tail cage and pulley are metal, but the pulley at the other end runs (I think) in a plastic assembly. It might be possible to build up a charge.

I have recently lubed the belt (post-crash). The second suspected negative collective event occurred shortly after I lubed the belt but I can check for static anyway. I have an antique electrostatic voltmeter that is very capable of reading static.... I used it to determine that my Raptor 30 suffered from severe static buildup. On the Raptor I could generate a reading of 120VDC between the frame and the tail linkage spinning the tail rotor by hand.... in the summer! After lubing the belt, I could not measure anything at all.

Paul

Paul Goelz
Rochester MI USA
http://www.pgoelz.com

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12-15-2011 09:54 PM  5 years agoPost 13
pgoelz

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Rochester MI

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Here is an interesting data point from Horizon. They looked at my receivers today and informed me that they ALL had the original code in them. I am virtually certain that at least two of them were sent back to be updated after the elevator reversal issue was discovered about a year after the initial launch. I'm pretty sure they are the two that had "QC" in silver paint pen on them, but Horizon maintains those two were using the original firmware. However, they also maintain that v1.2 is the original firmware and I am pretty sure that is incorrect. V1.2 was the update to deal with the elevator reversal, was it not?

Paul

Paul Goelz
Rochester MI USA
http://www.pgoelz.com

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12-19-2011 09:56 PM  5 years agoPost 14
aerocal

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Central California

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Paul
Ive found that there is some confusion regarding "failsafes" and how they operate.
Uncommanded servo movement is one thing.This is caused by a problem with the Tx itself.There are things that can mimic it as well.
First not all failsafes are the same among the various Spek Rxs.The only common one is throttle which is preset at bind on all Rxs.
For other channels you can have either "None"(as is the case with the 6100)you can have "SmartSafe" which holds last position for channels other than throttle.Or you have "preset" which moves other channels to a preset location specified at bind.
In the case of uncommanded neg pitch it is possible that the Rx was bound with neg pitch and the problem was a brownout/reboot.In that instant before connection is re-established after a loss of power the servos can actually be commanded to go full neg pitch until connection is complete again if that is where it was bound.
Also with a 6100 if it actually goes into failsafe/hold from loss of signal there is no signal going to any servos except throttle to force it to failsafe position.The rest of the servos will coast and not be moved or held in any position.This can sure look like uncommanded movement if there is a load on the servos.The 6200 uses SmartSafe which will continue to send the last known servo position signal and make the servo hold there under power until signal is regained.It is possible with smartsafe to have a multiple hold mimic uncontrolled input.A hold causes the model to start drifting one direction and without thinking stick input is added to compensate.You get momentary reconnection and then return to hold with the new stick inputs getting sent to the servos which are probably dramatic inputs in the opposite direction.It stays in hold long enough to go down.
Im not saying this is or isnt what has happened in any specific instance just that it is possible when you understand exactly how the system works.Thats why it is so important to be unbiased and objective with exactly what the chain of events are during a control issue and apply them to the specific combination of components and their personal behaviors to be able to make a diagnosis.

I have personally had the neg pitch after a powerloss event.Im careful now that when I bind/rebind to bind in hold(throttle zero) and have the stick centered so my initialization pitch(possibly different than failsafe position) is at zero.

A few Rxs have "preset" failsafe using the alternate binding method.Always check the manual for the specific Rx you are using to see what failsafe mode is available.There are differences among them.

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12-19-2011 10:32 PM  5 years agoPost 15
pgoelz

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Rochester MI

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This is the way I understand the Spektrum system and this is how my receivers behave. This applies to the AR610 and the AR6200 (the two receivers involved in my two incidents).

1. There is only one "failsafe" mode. In those receivers, failsafe is indeed the position of the sticks at bind, except that the throttle channel is undriven (no pulses at all).

2. All channels except throttle are DRIVEN to the failsafe positions. Because they are driven, the servos do not coast or freewheel. Try it... turn the receiver on with the transmitter off and try to physically move a servo.

3. Failsafe is ONLY invoked while the receiver is booting and before it acquires the transmitter signal the first time (ie., during initial power up or during recovery from a brownout). During those times, the servos are DRIVEN to their failsafe positions and the throttle channel is un-driven (no pulses).

3. After the receiver connects to the transmitter, a subsequent loss of signal with maintained power will result in all channels including the throttle holding in place. The hold positions are DRIVEN. The throttle then is driven to zero after one second.

In the incident that caused the crash, the collective went negative and the throttle DID NOT shut down. The heli went from slow forward flight to on the ground in less than a second and was on the ground with the motor running for as long as 5 seconds while I had the collective stick all the way down (in normal mode). The motor finally shut off about the time I hit throttle hold, but I can't say for sure if it responded to throttle hold or the receiver came back to life.

Responding to throttle hold but not full negative collective stick doesn't make sense unless it was the transmitter that caused the crash.

And NOTHING explains why the motor continued to run long after the 1 second delay before shutting down the throttle drive upon loss of signal or re-boot.

By the way, my failsafe position for collective WAS full negative so a reboot could explain the abrupt full negative collective. But it cannot explain why the motor did not shut down one second later.... or sooner if the receiver really did shut down and then re-boot. Remember, loss of signal = zero throttle one second later and reboot = no throttle drive at all.

I have sent all my receivers back for firmware update and replaced the receiver in the 450 with an AR6210. So far, so good. If HH is correct and the AR6100 involved in the crash was running the original code, that could possibly explain the crash. Do you (or does anyone else) remember what the circumstances were that caused the original AR6100s to reverse the elevator (or collective) channel? I have searched and I can't find it. That issue sounds similar to what happened to me, and in my recollection is the issue that firmware v1.2 was supposed to correct.

Note that HH is claiming that v1.2 is the ORIGINAL AR6100 firmware, but I don't think this is true?

Paul

Paul Goelz
Rochester MI USA
http://www.pgoelz.com

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12-20-2011 12:37 AM  5 years agoPost 16
aerocal

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Central California

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Dang I typed out a long reply and lost it.Anyway...Going to leave the 6100 FW details for another time.Simply said pre V1.6 6100s all bets are off.

I think maybe we are mixing/confusing terms.
This is how I use them.
"initialization""bootup" or "reboot" mode is what is happening in the limbo time between first powering or repowering after a loss/brownout and when it connects/reconnects.This is not "failsafe" mode.This is initialization mode.The throttle channel gives no signal and the other channels are sent the position set at binding while the Rx attempts to connect.This is generally to keep some servos from jumping to an unknown location with power and no signal and busting something.Once this happens you go into normal operation.

"Failsafe" mode is what happens after the system is connected normally and a loss of Tx signal forces the Rx into "Hold".This is where failsafe takes over.It is not the same on all Rxs.You can have "none""smartsafe" or "preset" or "smartsafe/preset" depending on how you bind and what the specific Rx is capable of.You must read the manual for the various Rxs to see which one is capable of what.
The throttle channel is the only one that works the same with all Rxs.Driving the throttle channel to the position set at bind.

So there are 3 distinct modes of operation.Initialization/reboot,Hold/failsafe and Normal

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12-20-2011 12:59 AM  5 years agoPost 17
aerocal

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Central California

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I forgot to add that I did have an ESC that would not failsafe to off once it was already running when it lost signal.It simply held last setting like smartsafe.Not the Rx the ESC.It worked fine other than that.I dunno maybe it was programmed that way.Cheapo hobbywing type 30a.
Something else to check.Spool it up some and shut the Tx off and see what happens.
Definitely take the blades off.It never hurts to doublecheck all the failsafes as a final check before maiden flight.Both the Rx and the Esc.Doesnt hurt to check them from time to time either.And after a rebind.
If your running a seperate Rx pack or UBEC it can change the logic of the whole situation too.Just have to apply all the possible variables and think like an engineer.Mitigate the possibilities best we can.
Nothing is a perfect solution in every case.Using what we have to work with in the best possible way for each setup is the most we can hope for.

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12-22-2011 01:03 AM  5 years agoPost 18
pgoelz

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Rochester MI

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OK, that sounds better I got picky because I hear people describing "hold" as "failsafe" and defining "failsafe" as the bind position. In other words, expecting the servos to go to the bind position on signal loss.

I have not set up a test as you describe yet, but it is the last step in doing the postmortem on my crash. I am pretty sure that the ESC shuts down on loss of pulse train but I need to test it. If for some reason it does not, then my issue is looking like a reboot. On signal loss, the ESC is driven to zero and it will of course shut down.

But again, the receiver in question was definitely running v1.2, so that is another very good possible explanation.

Do you by chance remember the details of the issue that v1.2 was supposed to address? I know it was definite and reproducible, and I think it involved elevator reversal and possibly collective reversal? On loss of signal, perhaps?

Paul

Paul Goelz
Rochester MI USA
http://www.pgoelz.com

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12-23-2011 08:20 AM  5 years agoPost 19
aerocal

rrApprentice

Central California

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IIRC v1.2 added quickboot.There was another issue as well IIRC with uncommanded elevator down I think it was that was addressed with v1.6
I seem to remember I had one that got sent in twice.All of the ones Ive used since the v1.6 update have not had any issues.I dont think I ever had any serious issues with them before that.I think I had picked up a couple used ones and so I sent them all in at the same time.I had 4 of them and IIRC one was bad somehow and they sent a new one with the 3 others that got updated.That was one of my first experiences with the awesome service dept.I sent them and had them back in a week.

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12-24-2011 09:10 PM  5 years agoPost 20
pgoelz

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Rochester MI

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I think those rev numbers are reversed. v1.2 addressed the elevator down issue and v1.6 added quick reconnect and brownout detect. I've never seen any reference to versions 1.3 though 1.5 but HH said at one point that some "v1.2" receivers might have rapid reconnect or brownout detect so it sounds like there were some un-publicized versions.

I'm still curious what the actual nature of the down elevator issue was.... still trying to put my issue to bed. It seems odd that I can't find a clear description of it anywhere. All my receivers are updated so hopefully it is a moot point.

Paul

Paul Goelz
Rochester MI USA
http://www.pgoelz.com

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HelicopterRadio - Spektrum DSM › Sudden and un-commanded servo movement
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