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HelicopterMiniature Aircraft Whiplash & Fury 55 › Whiplash Gas Question
12-18-2011 11:28 PM  5 years agoPost 41
turboomni

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East of the Equator

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the most interesting part of this thread is that there's a lot of squabbling about weight and performance of a model that doesn't yet exist in production form
May I add that I have seen the video in question before but I forgot to mention the heli was flown no where close to sea level. I have forgotten what the relative altitude was but I think enough to make a significant difference in performance.

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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12-19-2011 12:08 AM  5 years agoPost 42
fastflyer20

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N. Tonawanda, NY

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After Art Hughes flew my HB 600/700 with Hanson G290RC at the RAMS fun fly, he stated the Whiplash with the Toxic 270 had more pop. He did not know any of the specifics on the Whiplash HS, gear ratio, etc. It will be interesting to see how this develops once some heli's get built and in the air.

Oh yeah, Art has great collective management, all the maneuvers without any major bogs and he had never flown it before.

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12-19-2011 12:24 AM  5 years agoPost 43
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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12-19-2011 01:40 AM  5 years agoPost 44
James Kovach

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canton, oh - US

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Jeez James, it's just a toy. You don't have to take everything so personally. If we don't shower you with praise about how fantastic your gasser is, you get all upset. Come on man.
Give me a break. I take none of this personally. I leave that to you. I am not here for praise and glory, again, that is you. "It is easy to fault others with the things that you see in yourself when looking in the mirror"
Look at the facts here. Your gasser was the slowest of ALL the helicopters at the IRCHA speed cup. Am I right or am I right?
The results of that Speed Cup have nothing to do with 3D flight. You should know that.
So no matter what Bert Kammerer told you, your helicopter is still not on par with a high powered nitro or an electric. I don't know why that rubs you so much the wrong way. It's just a fact of life. It's nothing to be ashamed of or to get angry over.
Forgive me, but I will take Bert's observations over yours and anyone else's for that matter. And for you to ignore what he has to say says A LOT!

Again, does not rub me the wrong way. I just post to correct
With a 12s electric, you don't have to use any collective management at all. You just jam the sticks however you like for as long as you like. The same thing goes for a YS 1.20 powered nitro.
Keep telling yourself that. I have seen people bury Trex 700 Electrics with that same thought. Amazing what happens when you ask too much from a power system. Even the YS 1.20 has it's limits. I have seen it as well.
So comparing a high powered nitro or electric to a gasser is comparing apples to oranges.
No where have I ever tried to compare a Gasser to an electric. And I would not compare it to the new 1.05 and 1.2 powered nitros. So you can stop using that statement because it is of no relevance to what I am saying. Please read my posts and do not add more to them to suit your needs.
I personally really like the new Whiplash Gas, and I enjoy seeing what Bobby did with it in the videos (and in person). There is definitely a time and a place for such flying. It looks pretty relaxing and enjoyable to me.
Glad to hear that. My posts are not focused about the Whiplash, they are about Gassers in general. Again, if you would actually read my posts as they are written you would understand that.
But it's not like you're going to be able to turn off the sound on the video and convince something it is a nitro or electric. The helicopter is slow. The maneuvers are slow. And there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
That is your opinion and not fact. Soon as you realize that the better. There are MANY others out there that do not have the same opinion as you in this matter. In fact, your opinion is becoming the less popular one. As more and more people see this generations of Gassers fly, they are now seeing what they are all about. As I mentioned above, one guy though for sure we were flying Nitros. And that is not an uncommon statement. But you are free to hold on to your opinion. Just do not discredit others if theirs is different.

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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12-19-2011 01:48 AM  5 years agoPost 45
turboomni

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East of the Equator

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WOW!,,,,,

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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12-19-2011 03:36 PM  5 years agoPost 46
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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12-19-2011 04:23 PM  5 years agoPost 47
Mike Fortin

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USA

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2 things:
the model flown at the Jamboree was in prototype form, the pre-production models will be around soon for some additional testing and then the model will go into production. There will be some changes made before the final production version.
This is a true statement, when some production kits are released to team pilots there will be a better understanding of what is comparable or not.

Visually speaking, the Whiplash "G" was amongst the best performing gassers I've personally ever seen. it will be interesting to see what the gasser community has to say once we are in full production.

This statement is not true.
With a 12s electric, you don't have to use any collective management at all. You just jam the sticks however you like for as long as you like. The same thing goes for a YS 1.20 powered nitro.
Either of the 2 power sources are able to be bogged with poor collective management. While the nitro engine is more susceptible to bogging than a 12s electric model, you can still do it.

As of right now, there is no "bog proof" system that will allow a pilot to use power over skill. While both electronics and engines/motors have made things easier and given pilots the ability to mask some of their mistakes it has not by any means made these models or a pilots collective management "mistake proof".

Have Rotors, Will Fly!

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12-19-2011 04:39 PM  5 years agoPost 48
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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12-19-2011 05:48 PM  5 years agoPost 49
invrtd

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Victorville CA

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Not all engines are created equal. I am sure toxic Al and BH know what they are doing in terms of moding 2- stroke gas engines. But I am sure there are others out there too. Yes, if you don't mod the engine for the proper application, i am sure it can be a nightmare on mechanics and servos. Proper blue printing and "balancing" will make most motors run much smoother. Also running them in the rpm band they were design to run for peak hp and tq with the proper exhaust. I owned a Bergen gas with a BH years ago. Was a nice reliable sport flier because I never pushed the head or rpm speed of the engine or heli. But back then, running a head speed over 1900 was crazy talk. In the lift equation, velocity is squared contributing to a huge improvement in performance. Talked to any real helicopter pilot about rotor rpm and velocity squared. I think it would be great to have a revitalization of the gasser market. I don't want to pay $25-30 for nitro or $300 on a set of batteries. I like the 3.50 a gallon and long flights.

Just wondering if anyone has thought about a vibration, tuning fork system, to install on a gasser to help absorb vibes. Several of the real helicopters I have flown and worked on had these systems that were used for fine tuning vibes out of the airframe after proper track and balancing had been done. I think with the new vbar and other FBL electronics you can record vibes at certain freaks. Correct me if I am wrong please.

I think this discussion has been hijacked and is way off topic. I think maybe we should start a new thread in the gasser section to talk about this. I am guilty too.

Let me ask an on topic question. We saw the prototype frames in the video. They look very full with not to many lightening holes which might be why it's heavier. I am hoping the production frames might be opened up a bit and lighter to save a few ounces.

Clark

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12-19-2011 07:28 PM  5 years agoPost 50
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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12-19-2011 07:39 PM  5 years agoPost 51
invrtd

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Victorville CA

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Maybe when I go by my guard unit, I can get a pic of the vibration absorbing system on the black hawk. It basically a metal bar with some weights on it. You can adjust the weights and thickness of the bar to absorb vibes at certain freaks.

Clark

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12-19-2011 09:02 PM  5 years agoPost 52
fastflyer20

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N. Tonawanda, NY

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I don't see MA adding "lightening holes" to the frames, just look at the Fury 55, they like lots of uninterrupted CF.

Fly a gasser because you want to fly a gasser.
I know my nitro is getting lonely, but I enjoy 600 and smaller electrics for the simplicity and relative less expensive costs.

IMHO - this is a great time for gassers as we are starting to get more options to select from.

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12-19-2011 09:05 PM  5 years agoPost 53
Carey Shurley

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Orlando, FL - USA

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It basically a metal bar with some weights on it.
usually under the floor as I understand it

main issue is that it would be adding weight that doesn't contribute anything to the integrity of the airframe or performance. No idea how heavy it might have to be, I understand the weights in the full size are pretty heavy

If you're not flying a gasoline helicopter
You're paying 10 times too much for fuel!!

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12-19-2011 09:36 PM  5 years agoPost 54
James Kovach

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canton, oh - US

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My point here is that it makes no sense to try and make an "apples to apples" comparison between a gasser and an electric or high-powered nitro. Just because gassers and electrics/high-powered nitros are both helicopters, it doesn't mean they occupy the same niche. They are different, and each one has it's plusses and minuses. If this was not the case, then Miniature Aircraft wouldn't be releasing 3 different helicopters to satisfy three different markets
No one but you is trying to make this comparison.
But the whole "my gasser flies just like a nitro" makes no sense. A gasser flies like a gasser. Plain and simple. Why? Because a gasser is a gasser.
You are taking things too literally and totally missing what people are trying to say. Maybe change the word "fly" with "performs".

"This generation of Gasser helis can perform to almost the same level as their Nitro 91 powered counterparts." (notice I said nothing about electrics or these newer 1.20 or 1.05 nitros)

Although YOU do not agree with that, there are many others out there that do.

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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12-19-2011 09:58 PM  5 years agoPost 55
tnbulldog

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Cookeville, TN

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I am tempted to say the Whiplash. Why?
Maybe because you have a relationship with Heli Wholesaler?

What he flies, people buy!

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12-20-2011 01:08 AM  5 years agoPost 56
Eury

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Dover NH

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I'm planning on getting the Whiplash. Having owned 1005s, Predator and Spectra gassers, my MAs were more reliable, better designed, and much easier to get parts for my Century helis. Also, looking at the design of both, the Whiplash looks simpler and more robust, plus the RC format engine is appealing due to the cooling and packaging simplicity. It may end up weighing more, but I think the trade off will be worth it for me. I'm not some 3d smack guy, and I have good collective management.

Nick Crego

Citizen #0168

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12-20-2011 05:21 AM  5 years agoPost 57
turboomni

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East of the Equator

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Poor Sparx,,seems he has to defend anything and everything he says in most forums and always his response makes it the person that responds to him the problem ,,not his. Kinda like Congress these days ,,don't ya think??... Interesting,,,,,,,

Good thing he takes none of this personally,,,,,,LOL what a laugh!!!

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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12-20-2011 05:53 AM  5 years agoPost 58
turboomni

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East of the Equator

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Oh I almost forgot ,,my beautiful 1005 miniature aircraft heli. With it's rather poor 6.43 to 1 gear ratio and old school mechanical mixing,,it is a very lovely bird for sure. I have a Hanson 26cc pro plus in it for about 5 years and she has taught me alot . I also have a new Spectra with a Hanson 30cc and a nice 7.08 to 1 gear ratio. Alot more grunt and I am very happy with it too. Two very different birds that I am equally happy with despite their mechanical and power/gear ratio differences. The Spectra is way more powerful. I love both for different reasons.
Massive power for me at least is not the end all. But if you want big gobs of power forget gassers. The Big Power is elsewhere ,,go BIG nitro or even better Lipo if you need /want the power. I am all for more power in my gasser's but if I want to get the big power ,, I would go to a different power system. Why you think the fastest most powerful Internal combustion drag cars use alcohol and nitro methane?
How about a push button Nitros System for gasser heli's??? LOL!!!!!!

I flew nitro and banged the sticks and went to better servos and motors and 30% nitro and banged away with 6 minute flights and then I saw Raja fly at a fun fly and said to myself ,man,,,this is what I want ,,total control of the machine with nice controlled moves. I was sick of fly it like you hate it flying. I went to gassers.

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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12-27-2011 07:08 PM  5 years agoPost 59
rbort

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Franklin, MA - USA

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Just to be clear

First off let me say I weighted a Whiplash Gasser at IRCHA. Based on that, I would have to say that the 12.75 lbs mentioned by Bobby in the video is without fuel.
I was there when you weighed that machine and Carey was also present as he put it down to take pictures of it. At that time I remember your scale said 12.5 lbs and there was a 1/3 of a tank of fuel in it. So at 12.75lbs as to what Bobby said he's not that far off and that would be with better than 1/2 a talk of fuel in there (2/3rd tank I estimate and around 13lbs with a full 15oz tank).

Also depends on the equipment you put in the machines. I know you use lighter servos and try to save weight in many different ways, less parts, tie wraps, etc and leave gyro plates out for example on the G20. Not to mention the Century muffler is going to save 5oz over the Hatori one so I'm sure if you had that whiplash you could get it under 12lbs easy with some fuel if not a full tank.
I was mostly curious as to why there is a 17 ounce difference in the two motors according to Horizon
On the engine part, I do remember Carey stating that the RC motor versus the PUH motor is almost the same weight. I don't remember the exact specifics, but Carey I'm sure could comment on that.

Does it really matter? Well depends on your flying style. For me I'm like an FAI pilot doing precise 3D gracefully, and I get alot of enjoyment out of that even with my 13lb birds fully configured with my extras that I like (my 1005 was 12lb 2oz stock back in 1997/1998 time frame its now 13lbs) and they do just fine for me.

I do hope that you use that gift certificate and upgrade to a modified G26 motor from that shop so you can try that out and tell us what you think afterwards. Based on what Larry and I saw you doing in OHB, you definately need more power.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 H280, 4112 flts
Raptor 90 H300, 274 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3187 flts
Whiplash V1 27 3DMax, 1418 flts
Whiplash V2 H300, 168 flts

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12-27-2011 10:51 PM  5 years agoPost 60
Carey Shurley

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Orlando, FL - USA

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The rc motor itself is heavier than the PUH. The key though is that the RC motor is self contained whereas the PUH requires additional parts like fans, shrouds, etc. It depends on the relative weight of those parts as to whether or not they weigh the same or one is heavier.

If you're not flying a gasoline helicopter
You're paying 10 times too much for fuel!!

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