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HelicopterOff Topics News & Politics › The sanctity of marriage...
12-02-2011 05:59 AM  5 years agoPost 21
Dennis (RIP)

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Oregon

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Also for the record please state the intention of your post as it seems you're just screwing around with this topic versus trying to reach an actual end game. Maybe that is your intention.
Looks like you figured it out as well.

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12-02-2011 06:40 AM  5 years agoPost 22
Adaboy

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Maricopa, AZ, USA

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Apparently so!

Sounds like were cooking with gas....

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12-02-2011 09:20 AM  5 years agoPost 23
sks

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london

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WannaBe4D,

why are you talking to idiots like helicopter and Dennis?

Dennis are you married? Or were you married, because if you were does that mean bestiality is legal (woman marrying a raccoon?)?

no, seriously, I think you'll find that the heart of the issue is just society itself and what it deems appropriate.

I keep on saying this many times as a heterosexual: I don't like the thought of gay marriages/couples (well unless they're good looking lesbians but that's another story ). It's a purely psychological reaction, nothing to do with right and wrong.

and that's my point regarding most of these posters here, they won't admit this and give you nonsense about God doesn't like it etc. . . . (a successful religion/cult just reflects what the believers want to believe and feel as you know). But Steve does make a good point, it's not biologically "right" for children to be raised by a gay couple since it will mess up their perception of what "natural" pairing/parenting etc. is. In crude terms it will totally mess up their sexual imprinting that happens in earlier life and that's a very complex series of issues indeed.

ultimately we are talking about ethics in regards to this, but it's just unfortunate in our society that there are those who make laws and pass them simply based on their prejudices and feelings, because that's what's basically happening here.

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12-02-2011 09:34 AM  5 years agoPost 24
sks

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london

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I believe the best "worldly" answer to your question would be the reprobate mind of man has the ability to pervert anything. Being gay is considered right in that individuals mind as long as they say it is right and justify the behavior to themselves. Unfortunately for these individuals the majority of the population still recognizes this behavior as wrong and unnatural, therefore still coming to the conclusion that marriage is still between a man and a woman no matter what their individual beliefs may be. Wanna know how strong some people feel about this? Go to a Muslim country and tell them you are gay.
there's no real "right" or "wrong", that's what some people don't get.

in nature anything goes - and usually does. The reason you don't see more of it is because it's either reproductively unsuccessful or just a rare occurrence etc. . . . etc. . .

if someone is gay we enter into deep philosophical problems about whether it is "right" or not, and whether it is "natural" for him/her or not etc. . . . so even for you to judge and say that it's wrong you've already prejudiced the issue and shown your ignorance.

religion is just a reflection of society. God has total F@£@£ all to do with it, He's just a puppet proxy for society. What has to do with it is that generally most people are repulsed by people of a biologically "unnatural" sexual orientation. And this repulsion is reflected by society and the way it treats them. And this is repulsion is universally reflected across all cultures, so that should be telling enough.

And do you know that Muslim countries have a gay subculture too, like all other countries? A society becomes civilized when it tries to understand the problem and treat ALL of its members fairly, and not persecute those who don't fit in with it due to its own prejudices.

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12-02-2011 11:51 AM  5 years agoPost 25
Thomas L Erb

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Alliance ohio

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This guy just makes you go huhhh?
there's no real "right" or "wrong", that's what some people don't get.
Then
if someone is gay we enter into deep philosophical problems about whether it is "right" or not, and whether it is "natural" for him/her or not etc. . . . so even for you to judge and say that it's wrong you've already prejudiced the issue and shown your ignorance.
Yes he is deep for sure.

But he is quick to point out and blame
God has total F@£@£ all to do with it
but in the end words he lives by?
A society becomes civilized when it tries to understand the problem and treat ALL of its members fairly, and not persecute those who don't fit in with it due to its own prejudices.
if he would only live by his words

Tis is not a fight only by and from religious people. This is about money and that's all it boiles down to .insurance claims and pensions. If we let such unions happen the imediate reaction would be for everysingle person will look for a "spouse" to pass their insurance and retirement benifets on to or share with. Just more entitlemental behavior. Give me what I didn't earn!!

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12-02-2011 02:08 PM  5 years agoPost 26
sks

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london

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no it's not about money.

it's about what you lot "perceive" as either real love or not (the basis of marriage). In your religious eyes gays probably are unnatural and therefore cannot properly love one another, therefore such unions are not "credible". They're "faking" it, or playing the system for their own gains etc. . . .

but don't normals heterosexual couples do that sometimes too?

this is case of one side being all touchy about another side which they don't understand much about, bad regulations and etc. . . etc. .

sort like that film "I Now Pronounce You Chuck & Larry".?

so your point, Thomas, is that heteros will use take advantage of it, or some gay marriages are a sham?

what about the sham marriages conducted here and in your country for a green card?

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12-02-2011 03:30 PM  5 years agoPost 27
WannaBe4D

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AL-A-BAMA

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Wanna know it's true, just look to the animal kingdom for proof, not much "gay" happening there
This is actually completely untrue.Check this link. If need be, I may also be able reference some peer reviewed medical journals as well.
no, seriously, I think you'll find that the heart of the issue is just society itself and what it deems appropriate.
I totally agree, it's just bothering me that people can't get over this issues simply because they have an aversion to a specific way of life, and then disguise this aversion behind a cloud of religious non-sense which, in the end, isn't really valid. This is what led to my questions regarding why this happens.
Also for the record please state the intention of your post as it seems you're just screwing around with this topic versus trying to reach an actual end game. Maybe that is your intention.
I've already stated:
Why all the hatred specifically towards gays?
Why is it just the gays that have to go through this "justification" process?

I can find a way to reword these questions if you like, but I don't feel the need to. To keep the topic finite, I will close this thread when someone can logically explain the answer to these questions.

The purpose of asking this question was to see if there was a valid reason that only the gays have to go through all this crap to legalize their marriage. Athiest, Agnostics, and other religions didn't have to do it and their definition of marriage isn't exactly Christian or religios based.

My counter-points lead me to believe that there is no real religious reason to deny their "marriage/civil union/whatever". "Redefining" marriage has been done many times before. So, I'm starting to believe that the real reason for all the hate is somehow xenophobic and purely based on one demographics hate for another demographic.

It seems that religion is more responsible for decadence than homosexuality.
But Steve does make a good point, it's not biologically "right" for children to be raised by a gay couple since it will mess up their perception of what "natural" pairing/parenting etc. is. In crude terms it will totally mess up their sexual imprinting that happens in earlier life and that's a very complex series of issues indeed.
This is complete nonsense and speculation. Asserting statements like this are just as delusional following a religion itself.
Read here. And watch this:

Watch at YouTube

Bottom line is, it doesn't seem like any of the arguments in this post (probably mine included) really hold any water. There will always be room for opinion and judgment in the context of the questions. Difference is, I believe the religious logic used in this argument is flawed and it seems that when these religious are met with a challenge they either shun the topic or get falsely offended. As seen below:
Dear my Alabama flying buddy:
The world is hiding from God.
It started with Adam and Eve.
God made them as a UNIT.

Physical Union brings an eternal spiritual union
to the couple. It's a DESIGN, a SYSTEM, it's GOOD.

Ya With me so far?
Also for the record please state the intention of your post as it seems you're just screwing around with this topic versus trying to reach an actual end game. Maybe that is your intention.
Looks like you figured it out as well.
homosexuality aint right, dont fool yourself, bleeding heart liberals or not

Most of the time, I can be seen having more ambition than skill.

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12-02-2011 04:05 PM  5 years agoPost 28
sks

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london

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This is complete nonsense and speculation. Asserting statements like this are just as delusional following a religion itself.
speculative, partly. prejudiced, partly. but I would be stupid not to admit bias that I rather not be raised by gays parents myself or want to see that happen. It's just an ingrained disgust one has regarding an issue like this, you can't help how you feel sometimes.

I don't think it's delusional at all, Lorenz raised males ducks with only seeing other male ducks and they turned out homosexual. The issue for humans is probably a bit more complex and needs more research. But there is no denying that it's not biologically "natural". (in inverted speech marks because I'm not imposing judgment).

you also missed the point that I put the word right in inverted speech marks to emphasis non judgment. It's not in anyone's right to impose something that they do not have a right to, it would be like forcing someone to love you when they don't.

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12-02-2011 04:15 PM  5 years agoPost 29
steve9534

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yakima, wa.

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Evidence

Again I ask that you provide some evidence in favor of Gay marriage. These discussions always seem to devolve into an anti-religious diatribe about bigotry and so-called fairness. Let the Gays provide some evidence that the effect on society really is better, or at least equivalent to conventional marriage. The hypocrisy, to my mind, is in asking us to accept Gay marriage w/o a shred of evidence to support it. steve.

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12-02-2011 04:34 PM  5 years agoPost 30
sks

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london

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Let the Gays provide some evidence that the effect on society really is better, or at least equivalent to conventional marriage.
what exactly do you mean by "better"?

let's get some answers from you:

1) do you believe anyone has a choice in their sexual orientation?

2) are you saying that marriage should only be possible for two people who genuinely love one another?

a lot of people get married simply because it's an expression of their love for one another, so what if they happen to be gay? Are they faking it? Should they not because the majority frowns upon it? If you agree that you cannot help who you fall in love with you have to agree that marriage between a gay couple who are in love is just as legit as a straight couple.

I don't know why anyone needs to justify to anyone else what their sexual preference is. It's usually none of anyone's business unless it has serious damage to society (like pedos and certain dangerous fetishists).

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12-02-2011 04:45 PM  5 years agoPost 31
spaceman spiff

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Tucson

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I was raised by a gay parent. My Dad was awesome, but Marriage is defined as an institution for 1 Man and 1 Woman, and i see no reason to change that definition just so some guy with a life partner can call himself "wife".

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12-02-2011 04:51 PM  5 years agoPost 32
sks

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london

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marriage is a cultural phenomena and probably is only, maybe I'm not sure, less that 10,000 years old. It occurs in all cultures, so there is some kind of tendency in our species to have it.

This means its definition is not set in stone, and will probably change with time.

I personally don't like Elton John: bad tempered, bad character, and full of himself but the man is talented. He also got married to his boyfriend some time ago. He has a right to that as any other human being.

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12-02-2011 04:57 PM  5 years agoPost 33
steve9534

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yakima, wa.

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SKS

Read my first post on the subject for guidance as to what I think might be better. Marriage should be for one man and one woman, let the gays find a different term to describe what they are doing. steve.

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12-02-2011 04:59 PM  5 years agoPost 34
WannaBe4D

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But there is no denying that it's not biologically "natural".
If you please read the link I suggested, you will see that there are multiple instances of this in nature, not just ducks or a single experiment.
Again I ask that you provide some evidence in favor of Gay marriage
And I ask again why you feel it appropriate for gays to have to justify it to you? Who are you to determine what is best for society? Why must they prove this to you in order to be treated equal? And if you take the time to read my post above, I have included a link to an article that provides evidence that gay marriage isn't any more harmful than heterosexual marriage.

Most of the time, I can be seen having more ambition than skill.

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12-02-2011 04:59 PM  5 years agoPost 35
sks

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london

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Marriage should be for one man and one woman, let the gays find a different term to describe what they are doing.
they don't want to. they want to be treated just like any normal couple who are in love and want to have all the rituals and ceremony and legalities that being married entails.

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12-02-2011 05:03 PM  5 years agoPost 36
WannaBe4D

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Read my first post on the subject for guidance as to what I think might be better. Marriage should be for one man and one woman, let the gays find a different term to describe what they are doing. steve.
Okay...I think I'm beginning to better understand your point. You want the word "marriage" to remain defined as "between a man and a woman" and want homosexual marriage to use a different word such as "civil union." Am I understanding correctly? If this is the case than do you believe that most religions would be okay with states allowing the legal "civil-unions" of gays as long as it's not "marriage"?

Most of the time, I can be seen having more ambition than skill.

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12-02-2011 05:23 PM  5 years agoPost 37
sks

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london

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this is Steve's original point:
What benefit to society if we allow Gays to redefine the term marriage and use it to describe something other than what it has always been?
marriage was "defined" probably 10,000 years ago, so it's not set in stone, right. So what if society decides to redefine it?

if you call it a civil union some couples might see it as being treated as second class citizens.

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12-02-2011 05:38 PM  5 years agoPost 38
steve9534

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yakima, wa.

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Equality

I want them to justify it because they are asking for rights and benefits that are being paid in part by my tax dollars. Before we reward them financially and socially, it makes sense that some evidence be provided that the investment makes sense. As for equality, there are many behaviors that are not treated equally. People who drive faster than the speed limit are fined, illegal aliens are deported, criminals are imprisoned. Please don't come back saying that I'm suggesting that Gays are criminals and should be imprisoned, because they aren't and shouldn't. But the point is made that every day society makes distinctions based on peoples behavior and it's effect on the population as a whole. Gays want to be accepted as equals, let them be the ones to provide the evidence in favor of such a decision. steve.

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12-02-2011 05:45 PM  5 years agoPost 39
sks

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london

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so what is it exactly that they have to do to satisfy people like you steve? (no pun intended ).

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12-02-2011 05:48 PM  5 years agoPost 40
spaceman spiff

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Tucson

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if you call it a civil union some couples might see it as being treated as second class citizens.
They are not the same. They know it. Even claim to be proud of it. Yet for some reason so many have trouble accepting the simple fact that they are different. Trying to force me to call them something they aren't isnt going to fix that, and it is disrespectful for them to try.

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