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HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsFutaba CGY › Consolidated V1.2 tips
05-29-2012 09:06 PM  5 years agoPost 321
hankcp

rrNovice

San Francisco, CA

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T550 ANG.Rate

Ben, I'm trying to get my T550 to stop rolling so fast in FFF, but I can't seem to slow it down. Here's my setup:

EDGE 523FBL
ds620/ds650
2700 HS

AFR.Ail 50
AFR.Ele 56
AFR.Pit 50

Flt.Mode 5
D.Gain Ail 75 (from 100)
Stop Delay Ele 180 (from 120)

Gain.Ail 90
Gain.Ele 100
Gain.Rud 55

ANG.Rate.Ail 70
ANG.Rate.Ele 90

I calculated the ANG.Rates using your method, and it didn't seem to have any effect on the roll rate. My stationary roll rate is 360Md/s. Before making the ANG.Rate changes, it was 410Md/s in FFF. After making the change, it was still that speed. I decided to start upping Rate.CST since it started at 0. It got up to 150%, and my roll rate went to 400Md/s, but that seems like a rounding error. Thoughts on what I should consider?

In general, I'm really happy with the way the heli flies now. A fast roll in FFF isn't a show stopped, and at my skill level, is good for me to know how to handle. I just wanted to make sure my changes to ANG.Rate and Rate.CST were in the right direction.

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05-29-2012 11:55 PM  5 years agoPost 322
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

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Hank,

Reduce the anglular rate further and tell me is that helps. The other thing you can do is switch to flight mode 2 but copy over all the expert menu setting that you have with your current flight mode. The lower flight modes have a lower angular base, which will help the system further control FFF roll rate.

For now, retune your rate constant to default.
I want to see how this will tune by just manipulating the angular rate.

Ben Minor

Team Synergy Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
Progressive RC

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05-31-2012 05:49 AM  5 years agoPost 323
hankcp

rrNovice

San Francisco, CA

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Ben, I ran a bunch of different values of Ang.RATE, and the main conclusion I got was I suck at managing collective. My stationary rolls were ugly, but when they were good, I managed to get some really fast rolls. For example, at Ang.RATE = 100% and Ang.BASE = 480, my stationary was 420 and FFF was 430. Actually, the other thing that was apparent was lower Ang.RATE values slowed overall roll rates. When I dropped it down to 50%, my stationary/FFF rolls became 365/375. Does that make sense? I thought Ang.RATE was only supposed to affect FFF rolls. In general, I'm not going to worry about Ang.RATE and just leave it at 100%. My basic skill level isn't really able to notice a difference.

For sh*** and giggles, I tried Flt.Mode 1 as you suggested to get a lower Ang.BASE. The things I changed were AVCS.Dmp on Ail/Ele to 100, D.Gain on Ail to 50, and Head Resp on Ail to 3 and Ele to 2. The roll numbers did go down some to 330/350 (stationary/FFF) at Ang.RATE = 100. Once again, the roll rates are so close, I'm not going to sweat it. By the way, I did up my gains up to 100 on both Ail and Ele, which I think is cool. I think FM1 feels better to me even so I'm going to stick with it.

I tried a similar setup on my T700e. Flt.Mode 1 etc... Almost everything is great. However, I'm battling a small Ele oscillation in FFF. It happens for a very short period, and it's not based on any Ele input. I've tried lowering my D.Gain on Ele down to 50, but it didn't cure it. Shall I try 0?

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07-02-2012 08:07 AM  5 years agoPost 324
ozsteel

rrNovice

Sydney, Australia

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I'm a little confused and would appreciate the help before I go doing a lot of work to change things without getting a good result...

In the SWASH Basic menu, I have set the following...

AIL.Rate at +32% to get +/- 8 degrees of cyclic.
ELE.Rate at +32% to get +/- 8 degrees of cyclic.
PIT.Rate at -26% to get -10 to +11 degrees of pitch.

If I set AIL.Rate at +50% I get +/- 12.5 degrees of cyclic.
...ELE.Rate at +50% I get +/- 12.5 degrees of cyclic.
...PIT.Rate at -50% I get +/- 20 degrees of pitch!!!!

I've read in a number of places in particular from Dr.Ben that...

"It is VERY important that the swash AFR's be maintained in the 50-60% range for your referenced cyclic range. System performance, especially on 600 class or larger models, absolutely plummets when the AFR's fall below 50% because the ratio of electronic to mechanical shifts unacceptably to the latter, forcing the gyro gains to be run far less than ideal for good performance."

Is "AIL.Rate" equivalent to "Swash AFR"? Do I need to move the links in on my servos to reduce travel so that I get my AIL.Rate to 50% at 8 degrees of cyclic?

Model: Hirobo SDX with 135 degree swash set up
Cyclic servos: BLS255HV
Servo links set at a radius of 14.5mm

Also I want to remove all expo from the CGY750 and have it all in my TX. Do I set the CGY750 at -100% or +100% to get rid of the expo in the CGY750?

Thanks for your help in anticipation.

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07-02-2012 08:31 AM  5 years agoPost 325
scootr

rrNovice

Australia

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You are correct. You need to move the balls on you servo horns in closer to the servo centre to increase your resolution. 50 - 65 is the magic range. You will be glad you did. 12.5mm should be close at a guess.

I wouldnt have any expo in the transmitter either. Flight mode 3 should have more than enough for most.

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07-02-2012 11:29 AM  5 years agoPost 326
Kevin Dalrymple

rrKey Veteran

Indianapolis

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You want to set the expo in the 750 to zero for your ale and ELE. Set the expo in the radio start at 30% and adjust from there. Having expo in the 750 and the radio gives the heli a weird felling.

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07-02-2012 11:47 AM  5 years agoPost 327
marc8090

rrElite Veteran

Long Island, N.Y.

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Just to clarify what Rymps said, set the expo to negative (-30). Not positive if doing it in the tx.

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07-02-2012 10:23 PM  5 years agoPost 328
Kevin Dalrymple

rrKey Veteran

Indianapolis

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Yes start at -30%. Not 30% on a futaba radio. +30 on a JR or spectrum radio if you are using one.

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07-03-2012 02:39 AM  5 years agoPost 329
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

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The outer hole on the 6 point Futaba start or maybe one hole in will be right for the SDX depending on your head set up. Run 9 degrees of cyclic with the swashplate AFR's set near 60%.

On average most guys will want 9 degrees of cyclic within the suggested swashplate AFR range. If you set up for 8 degrees at right around 50%, then you will have room to increase to 9 degrees if needed.

Ben Minor

Team Synergy Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
Progressive RC

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07-03-2012 03:46 AM  5 years agoPost 330
Individual1

rrApprentice

Florida

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V

Any intel on a new firmware update?

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07-03-2012 12:36 PM  5 years agoPost 331
ozsteel

rrNovice

Sydney, Australia

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Thanks for your help.

Dropped the servo throw from 14.5mm to 11.5mm radius and now have the following settings...

AIL.Rate at +50% I get +/- 9.5 degrees of cyclic.
ELE.Rate at +50% I get +/- 9.5 degrees of cyclic.
PIT.Rate at -50% I get +/- 15 degrees of pitch.

So it's much closer to what you are all suggesting. Pitch is still high but I can back that off easily in the pitch curve in my TX.

CGY expo is set at 0% and I have negative expo in my TX so I'm all set.

Thanks again.

I'll let you know how I go when I test it tomorrow.

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07-03-2012 04:42 PM  5 years agoPost 332
Knud Pedersen

rrKey Veteran

Denmark - Europe

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I dont think its so importent that the pit afr is between 50-60% as it is with the ail and ele. So I would just drop the pit afr a bit.

ChopperKnud
Team Miniature Aircraft
ThePitchbrothers

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07-04-2012 08:45 AM  5 years agoPost 333
olaf

rrNovice

poland

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Did you use CGY in Trex 700 for F3C?

Olaf

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10-11-2012 01:55 PM  5 years agoPost 334
Ausflyer

rrNovice

Sydney, Australia

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Futaba CGY750 set up and Geometry issue's

Hi to all, I have a few Questions on set up and Geometry....

I have had my CGY750 running well on a Trex600 EFLPRO was extremely happy with the performance, I love how all futaba products just work in harmony with each other. well the ones I have used lol,,,,,

I recently got an Align Trex 700e V2, which I bought the align Trex 800 stretch kit.

I also after a very long wait received my amazing Futaba 18mz.

Helicopter contains a Scorpion Motor, upgraded KDE adjustable mounts to run the 11T pinion, Castle Creations 120 Ice V2, Futaba BLS 252 on cyclic and BLS256HV on Rudder.

Explination of what I have done in set up!!!!!!

Align Instruction manual says use the inner Holes (a) on there servo Horn, Futaba CGY750 advises to Follow Helicopter instructions for linkage ball mounts on servo arm. When I did this and test flew I get an electronic wobble in the cyclic control, turning the gain down fixed this issue but obviously the heli is very soft and sloppy feeling from low gain. I had the same issue when first setting up my Trex 600 EFL Pro. I changed servo Horns and brought the linkage Balls in on the servo arms from 13.5mm to 11.5mm and the wobble goes away and I can run the gain much Higher.

QuestionAm I meant to change the I-gain and D gain down and then put the Standard Align Servo Horns on??

Geometry Explination!!!

I get a perfectly level swash plate. when I attach my RcLogger Digital Pitch guage too the main blade I get 0 deg at half stick with blade pointing to the front of the heli. check the balde facing rear of heli and balance out so both blades are 0 deg at half stick. as I swing the blade in the CW direction I get 0 deg with blade pointing over the nose, blade moved to the right side I get +0.7 Deg. Blade over the boom I get +0.3 blade on left side -0.4 then 0 deg with blade over front of heli.

this is a brand new heli, never crashed has had one hover for about 30secs as I had the wobble.

Geometry Question???

When setting up a FBL system, is it the more important set the swash level or adjust my CGY750 to get my blades at 0 deg at half stick all the way around as you swing the main blades???

I get the swash level easily, I can get the blades tracking at 0 DEG all the way around but then my swash is no longer level.

I have been flying heli's for numerous years. I try my best to use the KISS Theory. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID!!!!! but I feel there is a technical aspect of what is happening whilst a rotor head spins, from leading blade to trailing blade. Im no engineer.

I hope someone can give me a bit better of an insight to the actual workings of how and why and what effects the above situations have whilst in flight.

Thankyou in advance for all your help,,, Cheers

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10-11-2012 03:05 PM  5 years agoPost 335
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

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Sit tight and let me correct a computer issue, and I will reply later today or after supper.

Ben Minor

Team Synergy Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
Progressive RC

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10-11-2012 11:46 PM  5 years agoPost 336
Ausflyer

rrNovice

Sydney, Australia

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Thanks Dr Ben,

look forward to hearing what you have too say.....

Craig

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10-12-2012 05:15 AM  5 years agoPost 337
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Align Instruction manual says use the inner Holes (a) on there servo Horn, Futaba CGY750 advises to Follow Helicopter instructions for linkage ball mounts on servo arm. When I did this and test flew I get an electronic wobble in the cyclic control, turning the gain down fixed this issue but obviously the heli is very soft and sloppy feeling from low gain. I had the same issue when first setting up my Trex 600 EFL Pro. I changed servo Horns and brought the linkage Balls in on the servo arms from 13.5mm to 11.5mm and the wobble goes away and I can run the gain much Higher.
QuestionAm I meant to change the I-gain and D gain down and then put the Standard Align Servo Horns on??

>>The model's electronic resolution is better when the servo wheels are at 11.5mm, so I would use that radius. Set the I and D gains as per the initial post in this thread and then set the total cyclic gyro gain as high as the system will tolerate with wobble or oscillation.

Geometry Explination!!!
I get a perfectly level swash plate. when I attach my RcLogger Digital Pitch guage too the main blade I get 0 deg at half stick with blade pointing to the front of the heli. check the balde facing rear of heli and balance out so both blades are 0 deg at half stick. as I swing the blade in the CW direction I get 0 deg with blade pointing over the nose, blade moved to the right side I get +0.7 Deg. Blade over the boom I get +0.3 blade on left side -0.4 then 0 deg with blade over front of heli.
this is a brand new heli, never crashed has had one hover for about 30secs as I had the wobble.
Geometry Question???
When setting up a FBL system, is it the more important set the swash level or adjust my CGY750 to get my blades at 0 deg at half stick all the way around as you swing the main blades???
I get the swash level easily, I can get the blades tracking at 0 DEG all the way around but then my swash is no longer level.

>>Regarless of what the swash may look like, it is only truly level when the pitch gauge shows zero degrees at all four position. That which you are observing is why the various types of mechanical swash leveling tools may yield inaccurate results depending on the tolerances of the inner ring of the swash to the outer ring. When you check the swashplate, either put the 750 into swash AFR mode or put the gyros into rate model so the servos stay centered.

Ben Minor

Team Synergy Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
Progressive RC

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10-12-2012 07:54 AM  5 years agoPost 338
Ausflyer

rrNovice

Sydney, Australia

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Thank you DR Ben

in my 18mz I always use switch B full forward position is in Heading hold mode and says I should be able too get 80% too 100% on gyro gains.

I set up in normal mode so the servo's do not move at all and locked into centre position, when installing servo horns I put throttle position at half stick, I then rotate each servo horn till I find which point is 90 degree to the servo's then trim the rest of the useless tabs off I am not using.

I will now go level my blades not my swash plate!!!!

curious question Dr Ben, why is everyone then saying it is MOST CRITICAL TO GET YOUR SWASH PLATE LEVEL?????? the market is full of various swash leveler's???

I saw a method of using a cable tie when I first got into FBL and have never used a metal swash leveler only cable ties, as I can see the slightest little movement when doing this.

Thank you so much DR Ben, I owe you a beer or 3, from Aus, bit hard to go for a drink. your knowledge of this gear is amazing.

I am coming across to USA early next year, I would like too arrange if possible to catch up and have you show me physically how you approach your set ups, More than happy to pay for your time. it is not easy in OZ when all the best pilots are on the other side of the world lol..

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10-22-2012 08:35 PM  5 years agoPost 339
quasar1

rrNovice

Madrid - Spain

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Hi Dr Ben,

I recently had a tail boom strike in flight due to ELE diverging oscilations while I was adjusting the gains.

I repaired it and read this forum so I started to adjust gains from very low values, as suggested here, instead of starting from the high default values.

Now, my TRex 800 flies greatly. I reached in both AIL and ELE the following gains P=100, I=30 and D=50. In rudder it has 95, higher gains generates drift. I'm looking for very stable flight with smooth maneuvers, like a scale model flight.

I am quite happy with it, any suggestion to improve this values?

The only thing I have is a damped low amplitude oscillation in ELE after demand. It bounce about three times before to stop. Is the Control Delay Out the way to eliminate it? I increased this value two points without significative effects so I prefer to ask before continue due to my last experience in this axis.

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10-23-2012 03:55 AM  5 years agoPost 340
Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

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Quasar,

Increasing the control OUT delays will ease the ele bounce a bit. This issue is being aggressively pursued in the next generation of firmware.

You will not create another boomstrike by raising the control out delays. 12 is about as high as you will want to go or you might start to feel too much lag in the control loop. You are largely optimized in settings where you have them, so just sit tight for a while longer.

Ben Minor

Team Synergy Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
Progressive RC

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HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsFutaba CGY › Consolidated V1.2 tips
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