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HelicopterOff Topics News & Politics › Slaughter in Afghanistan over Florida Koran burning
04-07-2011 12:35 AM  6 years agoPost 101
Dennis (RIP)

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Oregon

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It's always better to know the truth, even if you know that you're not going to like it. Man up.
No matter what the TRUTH is Dusty, it does not justify 9/11 and the brutal killing of almost 3000 totally innocent people.

You are approaching this discussion as you seem to think it does justify 9/11 and the sacrifice of those people to teach us some kind of lesson.

There were other attacks on innocents before as well leading up to 9/11.

Is that what you are getting at?

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04-07-2011 12:43 AM  6 years agoPost 102
Dusty1000

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Glasgow, U.K.

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No matter what the TRUTH is Dusty, it does not justify 9/11 and the brutal killing of almost 3000 totally innocent people.
Of course it doesn't. Whoever said it did?

That they killed a lot of people, is no reason to not want to know why they did it.

Just imagine, if more of you who seem to believe what your favourite politicians tell you, learn what the actual reason is, and that knowledge could help lead to a resolution of the situation, meaning less American lives lost, then would that not be worth finding out?

Look it up Dennis.

Dusty

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04-07-2011 12:54 AM  6 years agoPost 103
Dennis (RIP)

rrApprentice

Oregon

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Of course it doesn't. Whoever said it did?
Then, nothing that happened beforehand matters to me. It might to you. But, not to me.
That they killed a lot of people, is no reason to not want to know why they did it.
I have no reason at all to get some kind of profound understanding or education of why terrorists are what they are, and do what they do. I just want them defeated (killed whenever necessary) as efficiently and as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately, it might go one for awhile. Thats the way it is.
Just imagine, if more of you who seem to believe what your favourite politicians tell you,
I know that 9/11 happened and almost 3000 innocent people were killed.
learn what the actual reason is, and that knowledge could help lead to a resolution of the situation, meaning less American lives lost, then would that not be worth finding out?
You are so smart Dusty. You still have not given us your solution in spite of all your knowledge. I'll bet its much the same as mine. Unless, of course you need more time for profound understanding of brutal killers.

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04-07-2011 01:45 AM  6 years agoPost 104
baby uh1

rrVeteran

St. James, Mo.

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I guess if we are going to dig up the past we might as well go all of the way back to the beginning when Europe invaded the middle east and tried to convert it's people to Christianity at the point of a sword. That's when this whole Muslim against the world thing started.
Of course that wouldn't fit into some peoples argument that the US is the root of all evil in the world and not the country that saved the world, including the middle east and northern Africa, from the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese.
And speaking of those two countries it was said back in the 1940s that even after being defeated that they would never be pacified because they were too radical and commited to war.
Gee, what happened? They seem like model world citizens now.
Would we have been better off if we had just ignored or or pandered to those two radical powers? Maybe if we had sent Japan a letter of appology after Pearl Harbor the whole thing would have just gone away.

Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!

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04-07-2011 09:12 AM  6 years agoPost 105
shawmcky

rrElite Veteran

Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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Well one thing comes across loud and clear folks,spoon feeding , brainwasing and sillyness(<diplomatic choice)is alive and well and still works fine no matter whether you be "civilised" or otherwise.At this end(West) i blame News Intenational and"Dancing with the Stars" History,it would seem is yestedays newsOr a conspiracy theory perhaps

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

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04-07-2011 01:45 PM  6 years agoPost 106
Dusty1000

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Glasgow, U.K.

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Then, nothing that happened beforehand matters to me. It might to you. But, not to me.
And this is why you're stuck in your own version of reality. When you ignore the facts, any conclusions you may arrive at will invariably be wrong. Of course, that is entirely your choice, and I respect your right to be ignorant and wrong.
I have no reason at all to get some kind of profound understanding or education of why terrorists are what they are, and do what they do. I just want them defeated (killed whenever necessary) as efficiently and as quickly as possible.
Yet you do not want to occupy all the countries where they might reside. You can't shoot 'em if you can't see 'em.
You are so smart Dusty. You still have not given us your solution in spite of all your knowledge. I'll bet its much the same as mine.
I've already said that the first step to a solution is to recognise what they want, and why they want it. You will never know, because you refuse to take that step, and choose to live in ignorance instead.

The U.K. government got absolutely nowhere when the policy with the IRA was 'we will not negotiate with terrorists'. It was only when the administration changed and the new government decided that it should negotiate and reason with them, that a solution was found.

So does that mean the terrorists won? Obviously not, because Ireland is not united, yet the terrorists ceased their campaign.

I would not be so naive as to think that I could somehow dream up 'a solution' to the current problem. At least, not a realistic solution. Have the terrorists spoken to your administration? Have negotiations ever taken place? I certainly don't know, and I don't imagine you could know either. It's not surprising that your 'solution' has more holes in it than a block of Swiss cheese, as you choose to be so ignorant of the facts, and instead spend your time as an armchair warmonger.

Dusty

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04-07-2011 01:53 PM  6 years agoPost 107
Dusty1000

rrApprentice

Glasgow, U.K.

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I guess if we are going to dig up the past we might as well go all of the way back to the beginning when Europe invaded the middle east and tried to convert it's people to Christianity at the point of a sword. That's when this whole Muslim against the world thing started.
Pssst, the Crusades were in response to the Muslim conquests, which came first. But of course I didn't point that out, because it wouldn't fit into my 'argument'.

What is this 'Muslim against the world thing'? There are plenty of big buildings in non-Muslim countries which are far closer to the Middle East than the U.S.A. Why do you suppose the terrorists went all the way to the U.S. to crash planes into buildings, when they could have crashed them into buildings in China, India, Russia, etc etc etc, instead?

Dusty

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04-07-2011 06:49 PM  6 years agoPost 108
sks

rrApprentice

london

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Dennis did not realise that I called him a hypocrite

don't worry, Dennis, because when you die, Jesus is going to make it all right for you.
was a jab at you, Dennis.

Obviously you can't see what I was implying so I'll spell it out for you: why should you be so concerned with the radical Muslims? If Jesus is your saviour and he's going to make everything alright for you at the end of your life, and we all have Free Will etc. . . , then for you to be worried about the radical Muslims would be totally illogical.

What's all this "worry" of yours about if you are so sure of your faith? Are you scared for those being lead onto the WRONG path? But they have Free Will etc. . .
Let's hope that Dennis is better at running around outdoors in a costume than he is being a political 'pundit' on a forum, given how little he seems to know about the subject matter.
he won't run - more like scarper up a tree. the illogical coward.

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04-07-2011 09:47 PM  6 years agoPost 109
baby uh1

rrVeteran

St. James, Mo.

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Why do you suppose the terrorists went all the way to the U.S. to crash planes into buildings, when they could have crashed them into buildings in China, India, Russia, etc etc etc, instead?
Why did they blow up a plane over Scotland?

Because most likely those countries (China, India, Russia) would have just wiped them off of the planet since they don't have our moral code and the world knows it!
If you attack the west you get people campaigning for us to "understand them" or to "pay them to be good" or some other lame brained progressive, liberal crap that just makes the enemy stronger and us weaker.
And what is so difficult to understand about their "kill all of the infidels" teachings? I would think that it would be plain for even the slowest witted person to see by now!
Like the Nazis they will have to be defeated or they will never go away until they have won.

Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!

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04-07-2011 09:51 PM  6 years agoPost 110
baby uh1

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St. James, Mo.

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Pssst, the Crusades were in response to the Muslim conquests, which came first. But of course I didn't point that out, because it wouldn't fit into my 'argument'.
I stand corrected!
So you admit then that the peace loving Muslims started this whole feud with the Christian world?

Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!

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04-07-2011 10:51 PM  6 years agoPost 111
Dennis (RIP)

rrApprentice

Oregon

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And what is so difficult to understand about their "kill all of the infidels" teachings? I would think that it would be plain for even the slowest witted person to see by now!
Yeah. There are plenty of slow witted that would rather spend there time trying to understand brutal killers and not have a solution, or even offer a solution to the problem.

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04-08-2011 08:05 AM  6 years agoPost 112
Dusty1000

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Glasgow, U.K.

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Why did they blow up a plane over Scotland?
I thought you might have mentioned the more recent London Tube bombings instead. (But again, I didn't tell you that because it wouldn't fit in with my 'argument' )

The Lockerbie bombing was blamed on Libya, who have nothing to do with Al Qaeda. That should be apparent by Gadaffi's recent allegations that the rebels currently trying to take over his country (with our help) are only doing so because they have been drugged by Al Qaeda, and as mentioned earlier in the thread, there are reports that Al Qaeda members are among the rebels. That sounds very much like we are now fighting on the same side as Al Qaeda rather than against them, don't you think?

The London bombings were apparently carried out by Muslims associated with Al Qaeda. Why London? Because we are your allies of course, and London is where the U.K. government is based.

It's quite simple. They attack those countries that they believe are responsible for oppressing their fellow Muslims.
Because most likely those countries (China, India, Russia) would have just wiped them off of the planet since they don't have our moral code and the world knows it!
If you attack the west you get people campaigning for us to "understand them" or to "pay them to be good" or some other lame brained progressive, liberal crap that just makes the enemy stronger and us weaker.
And what is so difficult to understand about their "kill all of the infidels" teachings? I would think that it would be plain for even the slowest witted person to see by now!
No matter your wit, if you don't understand what 'the infidel' is, then you will misunderstand the meaning of the phrase. Islam gives permission for Muslims to fight in self defence, when they have been attacked, and only until the attacks stop, and even then only under a certain set of circumstances. The problem comes in the interpretation of those circumstances. Radical Muslims believe that they have already been fulfilled, and that their land is being occupied. Here is a link to an excellent one page article which explains it all.

Dennis, this is for you as well

Some argue that the Quran instructs Muslims to kill infidels, but is this true? If it were true, then we should expect to see a lot more Muslims killing a lot more non-Muslims, but we don't. More paranoid Christian conservatives warn that they are just waiting for the right moment, but maybe the situation is more complex than they are able to comprehend.

If you have read the article, you will see why I said in the first place, that if we were to pull out all western forces from the middle east, and stop supporting all oppressive regimes, then the terrorists will have got what they want. Then they would 'go away'.
Like the Nazis they will have to be defeated or they will never go away until they have won.
No, it's nothing like the Nazis. The Nazis ruled a (powerful) country, built up a huge army, then, fought conventional warfare, and invaded other countries. Al Qaeda do not control a country, haven't the means to fight conventional warfare, and wouldn't have a hope of invading any country by themselves even if the wanted to. Even the slowest witted person should see that it's nothing like the Nazis.

Dusty

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04-08-2011 08:36 AM  6 years agoPost 113
Dusty1000

rrApprentice

Glasgow, U.K.

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So you admit then that the peace loving Muslims started this whole feud with the Christian world?
It's not a matter of what I admit, it's a matter of what happened. This is all well documented history. Once you are aware of it, you will see that it's not one long Christians v Muslims feud.

The Muslim conquests were all about politically motivated empire building by the Saudis, just the same as several other countries doing in those days, not to mention for several hundred years before and after. They were successful because the populations of several of the 'conquered' countries welcomed them in, because of their religion, since they were dissatisfied with the Christian and Jewish conflicts within their countries at the time. Much of the populations of those countries then quickly converted to Islam, as they saw it as a new and desirable monotheistic religion for Arabs. It's well documented that Islam was never forced upon anyone, and it was a very tolerant religion at that time. Arab Christians and Jews lived happily among Muslims, and all under less oppression than they had been used to. It's only in more recent years that there's been any trouble from radical Muslims, the reasons for which should be apparent by now. Again, this is all well documented history. I thought you might get the wrong end of the stick when I mentioned Muslim Conquests.

The Crusades were basically the Pope's army, which set out with the intent of re-capturing Jerusalem for Christianity, even though most the population that lived there had voluntarily converted to Islam. Despite their initial purpose, the Pope's army ended up fighting Jews, orthodox Christians, and anyone else the Pope of the moment decided he didn't like, for 200 years.

As for the current problem, the countries they believe are responsible for oppressing them and occupying their land, just so happen to be mostly Christian. Well, at least the U.S. is. In the U.K. though, atheists are the majority. So if it was about attacking Christians, the U.K. wasn't a very good choice. Of course your politicians would have you believe that it is all about religion, because they don't want too many folk asking too many questions about their foreign policies. Knowing the we in the U.K, won't buy into the 'kill the infidel' and 'Christians are the target' thing, our government try to tell us that they take part in foreign wars to protect foreign civilians and promote democracy.

The terrorists saw the WTC as a symbol of the wealth that allowed the U.S. to flex it's military muscle around the world, and the Pentagon as the centre of those operations. That's why they picked those buildings. If they wanted to kill Christians, and make a statement against Christianity rather than American Imperialism (as they see it), they could have crashed planes into a few mega churches on a Sunday instead.

Dusty

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04-08-2011 08:49 AM  6 years agoPost 114
Dusty1000

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Glasgow, U.K.

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Yeah. There are plenty of slow witted that would rather spend there time trying to understand brutal killers and not have a solution, or even offer a solution to the problem.
'Infidel' is an English word and was traditionally used by Christians, and originally applied to anyone who is not a Christian. There is no direct Arabic translation. The Arabic word most commonly used in translation is 'kafir', which means non-believer. However this does not include Christians and Jews, as Muslims see them as fellow believers in an Abrahamic monotheistic religion, and refer to them as 'people of the book', just like them. Did you know that Islam respects the Bible? I'll bet you didn't. You won't see a Muslim burning a Bible on youtube.

'Kill the infidel' is a phrase that your politicians and your scaremongering press who know that horror stories sell, were only too happy to adopt, as did the radical Muslims. It's a simple phrase for simple people. You appear to know next to nothing about the history of the middle east, world politics, or even U.S. foreign policy, yet you think you have a solution. It's no surprise that your 'solution' means that you will back the U.S. military doing what it wants in other countries. Public opinion is everything to a democratically elected government. You believe what your favourite politicians want you to believe. They are obviously doing a good enough job to fool you. That's why I said right at the start, don't believe everything your favourite politicians tell you.

This reminds me of the God thread in a way. The difference is that all of this is well documented by history and has nothing to do with science.

The similarity to the God thread is that you refuse to even look at the facts, for fear that you might find something that makes you uncomfortable and upsets your own version of reality. This is despite your own obvious interest in politics, and the fact that this is politics. Your paranoia knows no bounds.

Dusty

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04-08-2011 12:33 PM  6 years agoPost 115
baby uh1

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St. James, Mo.

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[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassins]

A little history on peaceful Islam?

Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!

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04-08-2011 02:19 PM  6 years agoPost 116
Dusty1000

rrApprentice

Glasgow, U.K.

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[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassins]

A little history on peaceful Islam?
What's your point?

Have you given up on the idea that it's all about Muslims v Christians, and now you're trying to say that Muslims aren't peaceful because they killed each other, 800 years ago? Don't forget that Christians kill each other as well. Hitler is one example, protestants v Catholics in Ireland is another.

If you want a more recent example of Muslims killing Muslims, you need only look as far back as the recent tensions between Sunnis and Shias all over the middle east. But yet again, I didn't tell you that because it wouldn't fit in with my 'argument'

Quite frankly, if Muslims want to kill each other in their own countries, then that's none of our business. Just as they don't stick their noses into Christian v Christian battles, neither should we involve ourselves in their battles.

Anyway, from your article:
With his new weapons, Sabbah began to order multiple assassinations, ranging from politicians to great generals. Assassins rarely would attack ordinary citizens though and tended not to be hostile towards them.
They don't seem like they were much of a terrorist organisation either. What exactly is your point?

Again from the article:
They were generally intelligent and well read because they were required to possess not only knowledge about their enemy, but his or her culture and their native language.
It doesn't sound much like Dennis either.

Dusty

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04-08-2011 07:17 PM  6 years agoPost 117
sks

rrApprentice

london

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it's so amazing that Mr Deet has remained so quiet. It's like that Fast Show sketch: "I better get me coat", or, in Dennis's case, "my raccoon costume".

Dennis, you're such a paranoid hypocrite.

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04-08-2011 07:27 PM  6 years agoPost 118
Dennis (RIP)

rrApprentice

Oregon

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it's so amazing that Mr Deet has remained so quiet.
That don't matter.

We still have 9/11, and we will never forget.

You seem to have forgotten.

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04-08-2011 07:44 PM  6 years agoPost 119
sks

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london

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You seem to have forgotten.
Dennis, your attention span is like that of a raccoon: very, very short.

no one said we should forget 9/11, but seeing that particular event in the context of all the stuff that happened before it and in the background of what is really going on, puts it into perspective.

Dusty is trying to give you perspective and the proper context of these events, and it seems you just don't care.

Ignorant people like you are as much a danger to us as the terrorists are (and Dusty will understand what I'm trying to say with that statement!).

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04-08-2011 07:47 PM  6 years agoPost 120
Dennis (RIP)

rrApprentice

Oregon

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Dusty is trying to give you perspective and the proper context of these events, and it seems you just don't care.
Dusty's info is interesting. But, it don't chnage the fact that we were attacked and more people were killed on 9/11 than were killed in the attack on Pearl Harbor.

All the history behind that day don't matter. I don't care about the reasons. Anything we did to Muslims before 9/11 does not justify 9/11. It only justifies a response to make sure we are doing everything we can to not let it happen again.

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