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HelicopterOff Topics News & Politics › Slaughter in Afghanistan over Florida Koran burning
04-06-2011 04:22 PM  6 years agoPost 81
Dusty1000

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Jones didnt kill any innocent people (he was merely excercising his right to express himself) the muslims did.
Since you mentioned it...

Of course Jones didn't kill anyone. The fact that his action of burning a Quran, set off a chain of events which resulted in people being killed, is not nearly so important as the fact that he was 'merely exercising his right to express himself'

Dusty

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04-06-2011 04:35 PM  6 years agoPost 82
Dennis (RIP)

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Oregon

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So, since terrorists will not stand up and stop hiding behind innocents, how would you suggest they could be 'relentlessly killed' without killing many innocents? You say you don't support the idea of killing innocent people, but you can't do one without doing the other.
Right now, there is no military power in the entire world that is better at protecting the innocent while going after the enemy than the USA. If innocents are still caught in the crossfire, thats tragic, of course. War is not nice. Never has been. Never will be.
What constitutes us leaving them alone?
When they stop targeting us as the evil Infidel.

"A true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him" - G.K. Chesterton

Granted, some might consider that a bit idealistic.
shawmcky has already alluded to this. The U.S. and U.K. have a long history of doing more or less what they want in the Middle East.
Such as what?
Because of this, from the terrorists' point of view, we started it, not them. So it's up to us to leave them alone, then they will have no reason to attack us.
From the terrorist point of view, we are the Infidel and must be killed. But, its up to us to leave them alone ?????

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04-06-2011 05:57 PM  6 years agoPost 83
Dusty1000

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Right now, there is no military power in the entire world that is better at protecting the innocent while going after the enemy than the USA.
Wouldn't it be better if there was no need to go after any enemy?
"A true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him" - G.K. Chesterton
Unfortunately, a terrorist does the same.
Such as what?
Are you kidding?

For a start I already mentioned the fact that there are U.S. airbases in Saudi Arabia, and that the U.S. supports the Saudi military to the tune of $1 billion a year. Did you miss that?

After the Ottoman Empire was defeated, Britain and France basically divided the Middle east between themselves, and installed their choice of puppet dictator in each country that they occupied. You really should read up on some history of the Middle East.

While we largely pulled out on the 60s and left them to fend for themselves, U.S. dominance in the oil industry increased and made the various tin pot dictators extremely rich, and so gave them a stake in keeping the Middle East running the way that the U.S. wanted it to run.

One more recent example is that we used to support the Shah of Iran, until the Iranian revolution when we decided to support Saddam instead, give him weapons and train his army, and I'm sure you know what happened after that.

Then there's Israel. Have you ever heard of the British mandate for Palestine?

I'm surprised that you should ask what involvement the west has had in the Middle East.

Like I said, the first step to solving the terrorism problem, is understanding what they want, and why they want it. You don't have to agree with them, you just have to understand.

Dusty

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04-06-2011 06:25 PM  6 years agoPost 84
Dennis (RIP)

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Wouldn't it be better if there was no need to go after any enemy?
Of course it would. But, then again, we are the Infidel and targeted for death.
For a start I already mentioned the fact that there are U.S. airbases in Saudi Arabia, and that the U.S. supports the Saudi military to the tune of $1 billion a year. Did you miss that?
Yeah well, we are not there by force. But rather because their leaders want us there to help protect them.
After the Ottoman Empire was defeated, Britain and France basically divided the Middle east between themselves, and installed their choice of puppet dictator in each country that they occupied.
Then, its all your fault.

While we largely pulled out on the 60s and left them to fend for themselves, U.S. dominance in the oil industry increased and made the various tin pot dictators extremely rich, and so gave them a stake in keeping the Middle East running the way that the U.S. wanted it to run.
They had a product, we purchased it out of demand. It was a business transaction. We had a demand, they had the supply. They do with the profits as they see fit.
One more recent example is that we used to support the Shah of Iran, until the Iranian revolution when we decided to support Saddam instead, give him weapons and train his army, and I'm sure you know what happened after that.
Who could have foreseen what was going to happen there? Not us. Not you. Hindsight on this matter is not worth much Dusty.
Like I said, the first step to solving the terrorism problem, is understanding what they want, and why they want it. You don't have to agree with them, you just have to understand.
No, the first step is to make sure we are all protected from being targeted as the Infidel. Its up to the enemy to realize that dieing for Allah can get rather defeating, and there really is not 74 virgins waiting in heaven for them. Or, is that 72 ???

Understanding is not exactly a bullet proof vest, a bomb proof shelter, or an airliner proof building. Neither is attempting to place sunshine up our butts that all is fine and the terrorists are innocent and should be protected and understood.

Please.

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04-06-2011 06:27 PM  6 years agoPost 85
DougCart

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Port Charlotte, FL

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Of course Jones didn't kill anyone. The fact that his action of burning a Quran, set off a chain of events which resulted in people being killed, is not nearly so important as the fact that he was 'merely exercising his right to express himself'
So now we are slaves to radical muslims and cant express our god given rights?What if these nuts were against breathing air,what would we do then?

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04-06-2011 08:07 PM  6 years agoPost 86
sks

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london

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Like I said, the first step to solving the terrorism problem, is understanding what they want, and why they want it. You don't have to agree with them, you just have to understand.
I agree with everything you said, Dusty.

It's such a shame that we have the likes of Dennis paranoid for no reason at all. This "kill them all" stance isn't helping anyone and is playing into their hands.

who wants to aggravate a situation - especially if it's one we are PARTLY responsible for?

personally I think this radical Muslim business is blown out of all proportion.
Understanding is not exactly a bullet proof vest, a bomb proof shelter, or an airliner proof building. Neither is attempting to place sunshine up our butts that all is fine and the terrorists are innocent and should be protected and understood.
you SOLVE the problem, then you'll have no terrorists!! Get that? It's actually harder to achieve, because if it could be done, it would have been done ages ago. The problem is that, like a dysfunctional relationship, both parties use each other, resent it, but can't but help be around each other - see what I mean?

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04-06-2011 08:14 PM  6 years agoPost 87
Dennis (RIP)

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I agree with everything you said, Dusty.
It's such a shame that we have the likes of Dennis paranoid for no reason at all. This "kill them all" stance isn't helping anyone and is playing into their hands.
Never said that.

Once again, among many times, you do not read to well.
who wants to aggravate a situation - especially if it's one we are PARTLY responsible for?
Terrorists are responsible for 9/11. Not the innocent people on those airliners or in the twin towers, or the USA, or the UK. To do the best we can to prevent that from happening again is our responsibility.
The problem is that, like a dysfunctional relationship, both parties use each other, resent it, but can't but help be around each other - see what I mean?
I have no idea. Try again.

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04-06-2011 09:37 PM  6 years agoPost 88
Dusty1000

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Of course it would.
Then that is what we should work towards.
Yeah well, we are not there by force. But rather because their leaders want us there to help protect them.
...and keep them in power. You missed that rather important bit. How would you like to be ruled by an oppressive royal family, knowing that your next King will be a son of your current King? If you can see why you would rather have a democratically elected government, and why you might be a bit miffed if you were ruled by such a royal family, that a foreign country keep in power, then you might begin to understand why many Arabs feel the same way, and why that breeds terrorists who might decide to attack that foreign country because of it.
They had a product, we purchased it out of demand. It was a business transaction. We had a demand, they had the supply. They do with the profits as they see fit.
Did I say that was not the case?
Who could have foreseen what was going to happen there? Not us. Not you. Hindsight on this matter is not worth much Dusty.
Agreed. I only mentioned it because you asked in what way the west has involved themselves in the Middle East. That was just one example, which should have been obvious when I said ''One more recent example is...'' No need to try to argue with everything I say.
Its up to the enemy to realize that dieing for Allah can get rather defeating, and there really is not 74 virgins waiting in heaven for them. Or, is that 72 ???
How do you think that they might arrive at that conclusion, since they 'know' that if they die for Allah, their rewards will be greater?

Which brings us back to your idea of killing people relentlessly. You accept that terrorists hide behind innocent people, and you claim that you are against the killing of innocent people. How would you propose to weed out the terrorists, at a rate that allows them to be killed relentlessly? The U.S. may be the best country for targeting terrorists while protecting innocents, but the whole of the middle east is a pretty big place. Do you think that the U.S. should occupy all countries where there might be terrorists hiding? What about the 'tens of thousands of folk dancing in the streets in Iran after 9/11' - according to another poster? What would you do about them?

The idea of killing people relentlessly isn't really logical, when you think about it. You will never kill every potential terrorist. Not even close. The more you do kill, the more potential terrorists will become actual terrorists.

Dusty

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04-06-2011 09:40 PM  6 years agoPost 89
Dusty1000

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Glasgow, U.K.

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So now we are slaves to radical muslims and cant express our god given rights?
Are we really? Wow, who knew?
What if these nuts were against breathing air,what would we do then?
Watch them suffocate?

Dusty

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04-06-2011 09:40 PM  6 years agoPost 90
Dusty1000

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personally I think this radical Muslim business is blown out of all proportion.
Ya don't say.

Dusty

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04-06-2011 09:42 PM  6 years agoPost 91
DougCart

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Port Charlotte, FL

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I meant to say "against US breathing air"

At this point even the threat of death as a punishment wont even work on these nuts.we will be better off though.

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04-06-2011 10:01 PM  6 years agoPost 92
Dusty1000

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At this point even the threat of death as a punishment wont even work on these nuts.we will be better off though.
Better off if we do what, threaten to kill them all, or kill them all?

If the latter, how would you propose to kill every potential terrorist?

Dusty

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04-06-2011 10:03 PM  6 years agoPost 93
Dennis (RIP)

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Oregon

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...and keep them in power. You missed that rather important bit. How would you like to be ruled by an oppressive royal family, knowing that your next King will be a son of your current King?
Thats not up to us. Its up to the people in those countries to change government/leaders.
then you might begin to understand why many Arabs feel the same way, and why that breeds terrorists who might decide to attack that foreign country because of it.
They are breeding terrorists themselves. The notion that we are doing that is simply a very serious lack of intellectual dishonesty. We see a lot of that these days.
How do you think that they might arrive at that conclusion, since they 'know' that if they die for Allah, their rewards will be greater?
Beats me. No matter how hard I try, I cannot put myself in the mind of a terrorist. Can you?
Which brings us back to your idea of killing people relentlessly. You accept that terrorists hide behind innocent people, and you claim that you are against the killing of innocent people. How would you propose to weed out the terrorists, at a rate that allows them to be killed relentlessly?
Patience, determination and maybe some armed drones from time to time.
Do you think that the U.S. should occupy all countries where there might be terrorists hiding?
Nope.
What about the 'tens of thousands of folk dancing in the streets in Iran after 9/11' - according to another poster? What would you do about them?
Beats me. You got any ideas?
The idea of killing people relentlessly isn't really logical, when you think about it. You will never kill every potential terrorist. Not even close. The more you do kill, the more potential terrorists will become actual terrorists.
Its really a rather simple process Dusty. You go after your enemies with absolutely overwhelming force and you pursue something called "Victory" over them. You don't have to kill them all. But, you do have to defeat them so that they do not do the same things that get them into their predicament.

In this case, its tough. They are a determined enemy. Backing out and running from them is no response to the attack.

One other thing. I have heard this nonsense about us creating terrorists a lot from the left. Thats pure stupidity in my mind and makes me want to up chuck. They attacked us on 9/11. We recruit soldiers to volunteer and fight them and defend against another attack. They recruit soldiers to fight back. Its called war. They started it on 9/11. Get real Dusty.

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04-06-2011 10:34 PM  6 years agoPost 94
Dusty1000

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Thats not up to us. Its up to the people in those countries to change government/leaders.
How do you expect those people to defeat the U.S. air force and U.S. funded military, which is what keeps these regimes in power?
They are breeding terrorists themselves.
Of course they are. Where else would terrorists come from? It's not like you go over there and try to talk them into becoming terrorists.

What is important is to understand the reasons that they become terrorists. If you don't agree with me, then feel free to say what you think these reasons are.
Nope.
Then how would you propose to ''go after your enemies with absolutely overwhelming force and you pursue something called "Victory" over them.'' ?
You don't have to kill them all.
Don't you think that most of them might move to the countries that you don't occupy?
Beats me. You got any ideas?
Then you say:
Its really a rather simple process Dusty.
After saying that you go after them with overwhelming force, yet you will not occupy the countries they might be in?

Try to keep track of what you're saying, and at least be consistent.
They started it on 9/11. Get real Dusty.
It's not surprising that you fail to see reality for what it is. I think I've mentioned this to you in the God thread. There is often more to things other than what is immediately apparent. Try to interpret information for yourself, and don't just jump on the nearest bandwagon because it makes you feel 'safe'. I see a lot of this expecting others to protect you and keep you safe from harm thing, coming from the left these days. ''Thats pure stupidity in my mind and makes me want to up chuck. ''

Dusty

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04-06-2011 10:44 PM  6 years agoPost 95
Dennis (RIP)

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How do you expect those people to defeat the U.S. air force and U.S. funded military, which is what keeps these regimes in power?
Do you really think the USA is going to fight another countries citizens that want to change their leadership?

Come on Dusty. You can do better than that.
What is important is to understand the reasons that they become terrorists. If you don't agree with me, then feel free to say what you think these reasons are.
Mostly because they are uneducated and under employed. Some Radical nutjob gets hold of them and gives them food and a rifle to go kill the infidels.
Then how would you propose to ''go after your enemies with absolutely overwhelming force and you pursue something called "Victory" over them.''
You beat them down so bad they cannot fight back anymore.

In other words, continue to hunt them down and kick their butts hard.
It's not surprising that you fail to see reality for what it is. I think I've mentioned this to you in the God thread. There is often more to things other than what is immediately apparent.
Oh, I see. Now we are back to YOUR reality. Nice, real nice. I thought you disliked brain washing.

What is immediately apparent is that there is a high probability that we can get hit hard again by the terrorists. We need to do everything we can to prevent that. Any other consideration is not worth considering in my mind.

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04-06-2011 11:07 PM  6 years agoPost 96
sks

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london

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They started it on 9/11. Get real Dusty.
typical nutjob mentality. No one is denying that 9/11 was a brutally horrible event, but instead reacting with vengeful feelings have you ever considered, nay even contemplated, the sequence of events that caused it?

I mean it's totally moronic and idiotic to think: yep, 9/11, "they" started it, now we hit "them" back!! It's sort of like: yeah, 9/11 is where it all started, everything else before then does not matter. And this kind of attitude from an old person like yourself, Dennis.

the correct line of thinking should be: what have we done to them so that a small minority wanted to do something like this. And Dusty is pointing to you where most of the explanations are - but again, you just want to shoot the messenger.

Dusty, I hear it's raccoon season, I'm organizing a hunting party, we should be able to bag a few, want to join the fun?

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04-06-2011 11:48 PM  6 years agoPost 97
Dennis (RIP)

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No one is denying that 9/11 was a brutally horrible event, but instead reacting with vengeful feelings have you ever considered, nay even contemplated, the sequence of events that caused it?
There were a few events (attacks) leading up to 9/11, of course. Everyone knows that. Vengeful feelings ??? You sound like Michael Moore or the lefty Whoopee Goldberg with their politicaly correct BS.

the correct line of thinking should be: what have we done to them so that a small minority wanted to do something like this.
You might think something we have done to them justifies 9/11 and makes it OK. I don't. You completely set aside the fact that we are the infidel and are targeted for death.
Dusty, I hear it's raccoon season, I'm organizing a hunting party, we should be able to bag a few, want to join the fun?
Who's the nutjob here ???

..........Yawn

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04-06-2011 11:52 PM  6 years agoPost 98
sks

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london

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Who's the nutjob here ???
don't worry, Dennis, because when you die, Jesus is going to make it all right for you.

meanwhile, keep on taking the pills as the doctor tells you to.

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04-07-2011 12:23 AM  6 years agoPost 99
Dusty1000

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Do you really think the USA is going to fight another countries citizens that want to change their leadership?
Why would they have to, when they can pay others to do their dirty work for them? You are probably not aware that as the allies condemned Saddam for repressing the Kurdish minority in Iraq, the U.S. was equipping the Turkish military so that they could repress their Kurdish minority.

I guess you're also not aware that the U.S. government supported the oppressive regime in Jordan throughout the 70s and 80s, then withdrew that support when the population finally got rid of the regime and elected a real government. Much the same happened in Yemen.

It's not too hard to see which middle eastern regimes the U.S. provides financial support to. Just look at all the ones that supported the allies in the Gulf war. These are countries where the leaders don't do what their populations want them to do. The ones that didn't support the allies, are the ones who are accountable to, and representative of, their own populations. These tend to be the more democratic ones.

While you may not be able to understand why living under an autocratic oppressive regime that does what you don't want it to do, might cause the folk to try to do something about it, in whatever way they can, you should realise that others are able to.

As British journalist Robert Fisk said:
"Far better to have a Mubarak or a King Abdullah or a King Fahd running the show than to let the Arabs vote for a real government that might oppose U.S. policies in the region."
Oh, I see. Now we are back to YOUR reality. Nice, real nice. I thought you disliked brain washing.
Really DEET don't believe everything your favourite politicians tell you. Look up the information for yourself.

It's always better to know the truth, even if you know that you're not going to like it. Man up.

Dusty

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04-07-2011 12:28 AM  6 years agoPost 100
Dusty1000

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Glasgow, U.K.

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Dusty, I hear it's raccoon season, I'm organizing a hunting party, we should be able to bag a few, want to join the fun?
Let's hope that Dennis is better at running around outdoors in a costume than he is being a political 'pundit' on a forum, given how little he seems to know about the subject matter.

Dusty

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