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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › New Zenoah Gasser from RJX
04-11-2011 02:33 AM  6 years agoPost 21
woody37

rrApprentice

McAllen, Texas

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Yea, and there are those

who buy in to this technology who pretend to know what they are doing while making every mistake in the book. Colleagues, fellow flyers and even the "superior engineering" gurus offer help to resolve common green issues (including vibrations). There are some who will crash their "superior engineered" helicopter and will also
resort to techniques like bullying, ridiculing, or even outright harassment to "force" their point of view.
Lets not forget lying, changing original statements and even posting statements that plaque vendors on the actions and ignorance they cannot help.
In the RC world, there are no independent studies done to actually assess things like vibration in an objective manner
Justin, How Do You Know This????? Where is your data to support such a statement?

Woody

A bad day of flying or fishin is better than a good day at work!

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04-11-2011 07:05 AM  6 years agoPost 22
C.A.P.

rrApprentice

custer park IL.

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chris
How can you make an engine smoother by removing flywheel weight? I can see how an Ei with auto timing advance can smooth things out but removing flywheel???
when you use an Ei you remove the mag flywheel and replace with a 15gr timing disk. You can feel the smoother and faster response,

FYI
EI's does not have auto timing advance, they have Auto timing retard, which mean you time you engine to 29 deg to 30 degrees advance, and at about 6,000 to 5,000 rpm the EI retard the timing so the engine can idle smooth

Wally
(Affiliation) RC-Aftermarket (Engine Modifier & Engine Designer)

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04-11-2011 07:31 AM  6 years agoPost 23
C.A.P.

rrApprentice

custer park IL.

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Justin
[quote]In the RC world, there are no independent studies done to actually assess things like vibration in an objective manner.

You posted these Logs from you first fight in which you said you were very happy with the heli, you said proves the engine ran as smooth as a nitro, You do remember, Don't You or Were They Lies Also??

JUSTIN
[quote]As a result, unscrupulous people resort to techniques like bullying, quote]

Here what you posted about when you first go the engine back, It's one of your pinks you can not change,
THEN YOU CRASHED TWO TIMES AND YOU BECAME "ridiculing, or even outright harassment to "force" their point of view. Caveat Emptor".[/

Read what Justin wrote
I finally got the Spectra back in the air again with a new Wally motor. This motor seems to be super smooth, at least as far as I can tell at idle. When I am carrying it out to the flight line, it just purrs like a kitten--maybe even equivalent to a nitro. No shaking or anything. Starting the motor was much easier than before. The first motor I got had such extremely high compression that I could only get it to go "bump, bump, bump" and pulling the string made my arm very sore. With this motor, pulling the string makes the motor turn over easily going "burrrrrr" and then it firing. Much easier.

On the first flight, the motor was surging a little bit causing the tail to kick about 1-2" to the side, so I leaned the high needle about 1/32nd a turn (or about 3 minutes on a 60 minute clock) which seemed to mostly solve this problem. So then I took it up and flew it around a bit.

The helicopter is making a strange pulsing sound most of the time, most pronounced when I am descending. You can hear it in the video. The video I posted is my 4th flight which equates to about 32oz of fuel through the motor. I have the CSM Revlock 20 governor turned on at 11,250. When I landed at the end of the second video, the highest temperature was about 185F taken with a temp gun.

What do you think? I think either the motor just needs to break in more to smooth out, or perhaps the governor is causing me some problems? I want to try and fly it again tomorrow. This is fun. I am very happy. I bought this helicopter in 2008, and finally I am getting to fly it.

Make up all the lies you want, here the truth in your own word, Live with it, You are sure making everyone live with it.

Wally
(Affiliation) RC-Aftermarket (Engine Modifier & Engine Designer)

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04-11-2011 09:39 AM  6 years agoPost 24
Rhartlieb

rrNovice

Geneva, swizerland

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Help! Zenoah 20cc timing issue

Hello all,
I'm new in the Gasser domain. For a QWW Dominator 20, I need to know how to position the magnet attached to the fan hub.
I attached the pickup on the motor at 9 O'clock ( when looking at the motor from the front).
Could someone let me know when should the Pickup sense the timing magnet regarding the motor Top Dead Center position?
Many thanks in advance.
Robert

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04-11-2011 06:35 PM  6 years agoPost 25
C.A.P.

rrApprentice

custer park IL.

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Rhartlieb
Could someone let me know when should the Pickup sense the timing magnet regarding the motor Top Dead Center position?
The sensor is a n/o switch, when mag passes over the sensor it closes, It's when the the mag leaves the sensor, and the sensor goes back to n/o. At this moment is when the spark plug is fired, that is where your timing is set,
The timing should me at no less, then 28 degrees and no more then 30 degrees advance of top dead center,

Wally
(Affiliation) RC-Aftermarket (Engine Modifier & Engine Designer)

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04-11-2011 08:34 PM  6 years agoPost 26
Carey Shurley

rrElite Veteran

Orlando, FL - USA

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Advance

ignition systems (EI or not) have to advance the ignition as the RPM of the engine increases, it is a factor of the amount of time it takes the fuel to burn.

for that matter the same is true with glow powered motors. the ignition timing can be modified by changing the glow plug heat rating or making minor compression ratio changes with spacers to change when combusition begins/ends.

suggesting anything else is just confusing to people who are new to or are thinking about entering the world of gasoline helicopters

Mechanical auto advance ignition systems have been around since ICEs with a throttle. Auto advance with EI has been commercially available since at least 1975 when Chrysler introduced it.

If you're not flying a gasoline helicopter
You're paying 10 times too much for fuel!!

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04-12-2011 11:05 AM  6 years agoPost 27
C.A.P.

rrApprentice

custer park IL.

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Carey Shurley
ignition systems (EI or not) have to advance the ignition as the RPM of the engine increases, it is a factor of the amount of time it takes the fuel to burn.
WOW after all the years you have been flying Gasser with mags you make a statement like this,
Carey
suggesting anything else is just confusing to people who are new to or are thinking about entering the world of gasoline helicopters
I don't suggest,
Please let me take you to school Grass-er hopper.
I have worked on almost every kind of ignition out the, mags for the earlier Harley to my 914 911 Porsche to my 67 vet all had mag,
But so you do not get confused we stay with Zenoah mad and EI,

Lesson 101: Zenoah mag timing is set at 30deg advanced when not moving, It does not Auto advance. they mechanically retard Period

Lesson: 102: all new ei's timing is set a 30 degrees advance,
EI,s do not have an auto Advance. they have auto retard. Period

these are the tools you use to time an EI notice the red light that a Recxl timing light a must have tool,also the the timing disk,

in the bottom picture show where my reference mark for 30deg advance is

Lesson: 103 Both engines retard after running, getting confused I bet you are.

Master how can this be?? shhh you shall learn,

On the original Recxl the was only one chip board, the engine idle very bad without a heavy pickup disk,
Then they added a retard chip board on top of the first board, that retard the timing when the engine slow to about 5 to 6,000 rpm.and you can use a 15gr, disk because the timing goes retarded.

On the Zenoah mag about the same thing happens, by the time the red coil sends a charge to the gray coil the engine timing mark has retard to about 15deg advance, confused again,

By the time the electric charge builds in the red pickup coil and charges the gray coil, and the charge spark reaches the spark plug at about 4 to 5,000 rpm Idle, The spark plug is firing a few degs after top dead center, That's when you need the weigh of the mag to get past dead center because the engine is still firing to close to tdc,and could pre firer and reverse the engine,
After the engine increases in speed the ei is still trigger advance of tdc, But Because the spark is still traveling the same speed but the engine piston speed is now moving even faster and catching up to the spark. the timing ignition actually happens past tdc, then advance again when the rpm slows down.

There is a manual way to advance the mag timing, this made by a man name Finn, I used this on the first engine I built for Bill Meador,

I'm pretty sure that how its done.

Wally
(Affiliation) RC-Aftermarket (Engine Modifier & Engine Designer)

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04-12-2011 02:11 PM  6 years agoPost 28
Carey Shurley

rrElite Veteran

Orlando, FL - USA

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Lesson 101: Zenoah mag timing is set at 30deg advanced when not moving, It does not Auto advance. they mechanically retard Period
oh okay. Can you post a picture of the parts that are mechanically (your word) changing to accomplish the retarded timing please. And to keep it simple (your terms) just focus on a zenoah magneto system using a fixed position flywheel.

If you're not flying a gasoline helicopter
You're paying 10 times too much for fuel!!

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04-12-2011 03:47 PM  6 years agoPost 29
Chris Bergen

rrElite Veteran

cassopolis, MI USA

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I have to confess as to being a bit confused myself....

Carey, your quote,
ignition systems (EI or not) have to advance the ignition as the RPM of the engine increases, it is a factor of the amount of time it takes the fuel to burn.
The pertinant part I ask about is "ignition systems (EI or not) have to advance the ignition"

You're saying that the Zenoah Magneto ignition timing HAS to advance? Please show me how that happens as the flywheel IS fixed to the crankshaft with a key.

I suppose that's the same question you're asking Wally,
oh okay. Can you post a picture of the parts that are mechanically (your word) changing to accomplish the retarded timing please. And to keep it simple (your terms) just focus on a zenoah magneto system using a fixed position flywheel.
The only timing that I have seen that advances or retards is the Fuji ATM (automatic timing module), http://www.fuji-imvac.com/index.html#atm

But maybe I need more schooling as well...

Edit, I should have said the only MAGNETO timing I have seen that advances or retards is the Fuji....

The electronic ones certainly can offer timing changes, as noted in the link below...

Chris D. Bergen

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04-12-2011 04:06 PM  6 years agoPost 30
Brokenlink

rrElite Veteran

Oakdale

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I don't know,I'm not a gasser guy,but is this a timing device?
Does the Ignition use a timing control to set the timing for
starting and full throttle.

Yes. For years we used the T.C.S.A. (Throttle Coupled Spark
Advance). This works very well and several of the engine manufacturers
still use this method for setting engine timing. This requires a linkage,
usually through a Bellcrank, to move the timing plate to advance timing
when the throttle is opened. In the past this has caused some minor
problems by binding up or worn parts. The engine manufacturers
have worked out some very Heavy duty T.C.S.A. systems that are very
reliable.

Does C.H have a electronic timing control?

Yes, our Synchro Spark is a C.T.C. (Computer Timing Control). We have
been making these for several years. It has been very successful, but
does add to the cost of the system. We put the C.T.C timing control
on all of the engines we do here at C.H. The C.T.C. still requires the
Ignition timing to be set when you first put it on your engine
http://www.ajhobbies.net/product.asp?pid=1787

Jamie Griffith

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04-12-2011 05:18 PM  6 years agoPost 31
C.A.P.

rrApprentice

custer park IL.

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NO pictures grasser-hopper Yet, I'm having to much fun.

The cam of the Zenoah retards the timing.
You do know where the cam of the Zenoah engine is don't you Carey?????
(Clue for the clueless) rather what part of the part of the engine is the "cam"
(And You keep try to influence newbies, That a 14,000 rpm engine is better the engine then one that match HP, to torque, using a better B/S ratio,and runs at a lower RPM which cause lower ware.

By what you have said so far. I know you really don't know much about the Zenoah engines you been flying how many years,, (But I will say to do "write" a good walk).
Anyways back to school:
What is the cam on a Zenoah mag engine???, and how does it retard the timing, From a preset advance timing, with a fixed flywheel???

Fact: If you do not know this right off you should not be giving advise on engine. because you are just an ally mechanic,
NO Googling
Just one more simple question; WHEN DO YOU KNOW WHEN A ZENOAH IS FULLY SEALED.
Ill be back when I get home.

Wally
(Affiliation) RC-Aftermarket (Engine Modifier & Engine Designer)

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04-12-2011 06:33 PM  6 years agoPost 32
Carey Shurley

rrElite Veteran

Orlando, FL - USA

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ha ha ha, I didn't expect you to answer my question

I see the long cold winter hasn't changed your approach to sharing information here, when anyone asks for facts you go on the personal attack. Judging by recent politics maybe thats just an illinois thing, dunno.

at any rate I will admit that I do not know everything about everything. My role is to promote gasoline powered helicopters. I am not selling anything nor do I profit because customers buy or don't buy something.

When I publish any advice its based on personal experience that I know has and will work for others with the sole goal of them being successful and having fun. Sometimes that results in recommending a commercial product that has proven over time to be useful or helpful because it works. (I have on more than one occasion recommended people buy a cooling system that you yourself have made).

As you continue to personally attack me and anybody else that seems to disagree with your helicopter philosphy it is I am sure only coincidental that you are in business to sell unique and relatively expensive helicopter motors (which of course you have every right to do.)

Because we are somewhat of a niche within a niche it is sometimes difficult for potential gas helicopter pilots to filter through the noise to make gas helicopter decisions that they will be happy with (this thread is not contributing to that purpose either). I will continue to do that as long as anyone will listen.

If you're not flying a gasoline helicopter
You're paying 10 times too much for fuel!!

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04-12-2011 07:20 PM  6 years agoPost 33
Chris Bergen

rrElite Veteran

cassopolis, MI USA

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Forgetting Wally for the moment, I am still curious and willing to hear that I may be mistaken on how the timing works for advancing OR retarding on a Magneto ignition system without something like whats included with the Fuji Engine.

My suspicion is that the fixed timing is a compromise in these Zenoah magneto ignition system engines, a compromise for reliable idle AND Higher RPM running, but beyond a certain RPM, the firing of the Spark is just too far behind the position of the piston in it's stroke. Could be considered RETARDED at this point.

That's MY understanding anyway.

If there's something in the Zenoah coil that takes this higher RPM into account and automatically advances the timing to compensate, that would be news to me. But then again, it wouldn't be the first time I've not known what was going on inside...

Chris D. Bergen

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04-12-2011 07:36 PM  6 years agoPost 34
Justin Stuart (RIP)

rrMaster

Plano, Texas

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when anyone asks for facts you go on the personal attack
As you continue to personally attack me and anybody else that seems to disagree
It is behavior like this which is toxic to the enjoyment of the hobby.

Chris Bergen has a financial investment in this hobby too, but if you'll notice he is usually respectful and does not go on personal attacks. Moreover, Chris Bergen does not have a team of "attack dogs" who he can sic on anyone and everyone who disagrees with him.

It would be nice of more of the people in this hobby who claim to be professionals could actually act "professional" in this way.
My suspicion is that the fixed timing is a compromise in these Zenoah magneto ignition system engines, a compromise for reliable idle AND Higher RPM running, but beyond a certain RPM, the firing of the Spark is just too far behind the position of the piston in it's stroke.
Fixed timing is certainly a compromise between the smoothest idle and the smoothest high RPM. This is why nearly all of the planker motors are using EI. However the difference between a helicopter motor and a plank motor is that the plank motor has a giant flywheel (propeller) to smooth out the engine pulses. Moreover, plank motors run at a variety of RPMs and need a smooth idle to make landing possible, while helicopter motors run at nearly the same RPM the entire flight.

Avant RC
Scorpion Power Systems
Thunder Power RC
Kontronik Drives

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04-12-2011 08:07 PM  6 years agoPost 35
turboomni

rrProfessor

East of the Equator

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Good Grief this place is getting quite weird.
I will throw out a question though,,
My understanding a Zenoah Mag system is mechanically fixed. No mechanical parts can change their adjustment to change the timing while running.
I was wondering though the time it takes for the magnet to pass over the coil changes with rpm. Is there any changed timing in how long it takes the magnito to fire it's sparkplug at different rpm's? Also is there a hotter spark voltage at a certain rpm? Say stronger spark at idle and weaker at high rpms because the magnet is taking more time over the coil for example? Or is the timing always constant with a strong spark whatever the rpm?

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly far better than I can pilot them

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04-12-2011 08:38 PM  6 years agoPost 36
Chris Bergen

rrElite Veteran

cassopolis, MI USA

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Ohh I don't know Justin. I have the ability to be just as big an ass in here as anybody. I can provide references if needed...

But, I have known Carey (cliff ) for a LOOONG time, even before there WAS a Bergen R/C Helicopters, so I have an idea of Carey's background in the hobby. I may not AGREE with him all the time, I do understand that he may have knowledge that I do not.

And I understand that I CAN be wrong... just not very often...

Chris D. Bergen

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04-12-2011 09:13 PM  6 years agoPost 37
KopterKat

rrVeteran

New Jersey

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Ohh I don't know Justin. I have the ability to be just as big an ass in here as anybody. I can provide references if needed...
You got to like a guy knows what he is, or can become if the opportunity presents itself


FlipMode Squad

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04-12-2011 10:23 PM  6 years agoPost 38
Billme

rrElite Veteran

MS

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Left blank on freaking purpose......

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04-12-2011 11:08 PM  6 years agoPost 39
Justin Stuart (RIP)

rrMaster

Plano, Texas

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I may not AGREE with him all the time, I do understand that he may have knowledge that I do not.
There is a HUGE difference between saying

"I disagree with you and these are the reason why",

...and saying

"I disagree with you because you're stupid and I am now going to call up my friends and ask them to post negative comments about you".

Discussion is what brings about learning. Respectful debate challenges people to think harder. But when someone has a huge financial (and egotistical) motive for proving they are right and everyone else is wrong no matter what, it causes most of the really creative and interesting people to leave the forums.

Chris, I agree that you can be a little bit of an @ss at times, but you have never called me on the phone and threatened to hire a lawyer to sue me for something I have written in the forums. So you're a good guy in my book.

As for the "Automatic Timing Module" in the Fuji link, it seems reasonable to me that you could design an electronic circuit to change the speed of the ignition spark depending on the speed of the flywheel rotation. I believe that a combination of inductors and capacitors could do something like this, or perhaps a semiconductor junction. Essentially, you would have the timing maximally advanced at full throttle, and as the speed of the magneto slowed, the circuitry would gradually delay the propagation of the spark.

If I were designing a primary coil to automatically change the timing of the spark, I might choose to use an LC circuit which is a capacitor and inductor in series. This circuit has a certain resonant frequency, and the resonant frequency would have to be "tuned" to whatever the desired RPM of the motor was (i.e. 13,000rpm). Any speed faster or slower than this would cause the circuit to be "out of phase" and therefore possibly delayed depending on how it was configured. But a circuit such as this would also cause the spark to decrease in intensity at any speed other than the tuned speed.

So as a result Fuji is probably using a semiconductor of some sort instead. But I still can't figure out how this would be done without an outside voltage source. I would love to see it if someone could find a schematic.

The Zenoah primary coil appears to me to be a simply a coil. Without cutting it open, I don't believe there is anything inside other than a loop of wire. The secondary coil appears to be nothing more than a step-up transformer. Without cutting these parts open, it is difficult to tell, but it doesn't appear that the stock magneto Zenoah ignition has the ability to change the timing of the spark. I could be wrong, however.

Avant RC
Scorpion Power Systems
Thunder Power RC
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04-13-2011 12:21 AM  6 years agoPost 40
C.A.P.

rrApprentice

custer park IL.

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Carey
suggesting anything else is just confusing to people who are new to or are thinking about entering the world of gasoline helicopters
What was this Carey?? you could of just asked to explain.
This how you write, giving impression, that someone does not something,
Like when you said you tried both the engines builders who make 30cc and they vibrated like hell, when I ask who they were. you shut up leaving the impression, you try mine. you do this all time.
You promote one builder your long time friend, That why I trust Bill. He has an open mind, and will try any engine fan etc etc. and give his honest opinion.
I asked you to try a engine. you said no,
So why should anyone listen to a closed mind
And remember You came to me to see if I could give you friend. With some of my advancements, which I did, And he is using them in his newest engine, But what happen to credit you said you would give, No instead you call me a threat to the hobby. The only threat that I could be is to another builder. You are not objective, you are one sided.

As for your write up about my fan,I thanked you, But what you said is right, if it didn't work, I wouldn't be thanking you. So are you saying I should be thank full, and not call you out when your wrong, or write about something you don't know or understand. That not me.
Yes I have rough edges, I tell the truth, it hurts,

OK back to school
ha ha ha, I didn't expect you to answer my question
This is so warm and friendly, So Carey,
or is it that you couldn't find the answer on Google.

Carey
oh okay. Can you post a picture of the parts that are mechanically (your word) changing to accomplish the retarded timing please. And to keep it simple (your terms) just focus on a zenoah magneto system using a fixed position flywheel.
Another warm and friendly comment by Carey,

So simple it shall will be.

This part is so simple, I was thought this 44year ago

Once you understand what the parts do. It's like any 4 cycle car or bike engine and very easy to make torque and hp, not just rpm hp,

As for timing. very very simple the faster the cam turns (crank) the faster the piston reaches tdc, while the electric charge is still moving at the the same speed. The increased piston speed start advance on the electric charge, In turn retarding the timing, from it fixed 30deg advance. All done mechanically like I said, by the way this is how all engine work except Zenoah starts advanced then retards, while car start retarded then advance,
There you go Carey with your warm and friendly ha ha ha,(ha ha ha)

Next time just ask, I don't like getting bashed first either, And you'll never see me writing about how wonderful I'm. It's so not me,
But it been my "experience" It is so you,

Wally
(Affiliation) RC-Aftermarket (Engine Modifier & Engine Designer)

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