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09-08-2003 05:23 AM  14 years agoPost 1
hrpull

rrNovice

St. Louis, Missouri

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I've been flying my Hummingbird with Hummingboard mixer and Century Piezo Gyro for a while now. I decided to try separates so I bought the standard combo - ICS 100 for main, ICS 50 for tail rotor and a CSM HLG200 gyro from Helihobby. This combo has proved to be nothing but trouble.

I'm running the 370 motor with a stock tail rotor motor, and Hitech 55 servos.

I've been use to a fairly stable tail with the hb/Century gyro but I could not get the tail to settle down with the separates. The tail looks like the gain is too high - constant seeking of about 30 degrees from one side to another. I'm using a Futaba 9c with revo mix off and I tried all gain settings on the CSM 200 to no avail. I get either a drifting tail with bad performance at low gain, or a fairly locked tail with a definite wag at higher gain.

Finally, I looked at the tail rotor voltage with an oscilloscope and it looks to me like the ICS 50 has around 32 steps from no motion to full throttle (i tested this just with the radio at 100%ATV and no gyro - ICS 50 plugged directly into the receiver). After ruling out mechanical issues, I think that the wagging is being caused by the low resolution of the tail rotor throttle with the CSM 200 commands. I know many are running this combo so I'm suprised that I'm having this tail wagging problem going on. I also tried using my Century gyro with the separates and revo mix on the 9C. I noticed the same wagging even with lots of adjustments of the revo mix and gyro gain on a lazy suzanne setup.

I'm back to my Hummingboard with Century gyro and I'm again happy with the smoothness of the tail. No wagging at all. I'm just wondering if there are different firmware versions of the ICS 50E being sold or if I just got a bad one. Is there a better ESC for the tail - Pixie or something else? For now, the CSM 200 is destined for my nitro heli. Thanks,

Heino Pull

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09-08-2003 08:28 AM  14 years agoPost 2
Astro30

rrApprentice

Hawaii

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I think you may have a bad ics 50 esc, I heard so many good things about that esc and the csm 200. Plus you say you also had trouble with your century gyro and revo which works fine with the hummingboard so I'm pretty sure you got a bad esc.

I myself run that ics 50 esc with a Futaba gy 240 and my tail is absolutely rock solid steady.

Eolo Pro--Hacker C40 12t--Kontronik Jazz 40-6-12--GY 401--9253

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09-08-2003 03:58 PM  14 years agoPost 3
hrpull

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St. Louis, Missouri

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Thanks for the reply. It must be the ICS 50, I have another one on order to try again.

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09-09-2003 09:10 PM  14 years agoPost 4
Frebaln

rrNovice

Nor Cal

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Ok, I see a lot of post about seperates, but have a few questions. What are the pros and cons of going to seperates?? Does it fly and handle any better.
I have a Stock FEDA/Hummer:
GWS 4 ch tx
GWS 4 ch rx
GWS piezo-gyro
stock main motor
B2C tail motor

Currently it flys fine, but the rudder trim is set al the way to the left and still have to apply a little rt stick sometimes to keep it straight. The gyro gain is set completely to the rt, as beginner per instructions.

Would seperates make some much more of a difference ???

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09-10-2003 03:51 AM  14 years agoPost 5
Hoverup

rrElite Veteran

Golden Gulf Coast - USA

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Likely the main improvement you would notice would come from the addition of a Heading Hold Gyro like a CSM HLG 200 or a Futaba GY-240. HH gyros really ease things up for beginners. Not mandatory but nice. The other major impact would come changing to brushless power like Hacker, Razor or AstroFlight. This and a set of LiPoly batteries give you 20+ min of flight time and help you progress a lot faster. No going into ground effect every 5min prior to a pack changeout. Again not required but nice, really nice. All that said, if you are having fun and gaining flying skills with what you have, save your money for a Micro CP with all the goodies and keep the FP Feda/Hummer for fun and indoor flying.

Cheers - Boyd
AMA 80393
Major USAF
Retired

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09-10-2003 05:43 AM  14 years agoPost 6
Phild

rrNovice

California

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Hoverup,

if you were to choose between the Astro, Hacker or Razor, which would it be?

Also, between the GY240 and the CMS 200 which?

Thanks,
Phil

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09-10-2003 07:16 AM  14 years agoPost 7
tabbytabb

rrElite Veteran

seattle

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Im not hoverup,
But definately the gy 240 and the razor MHV2, I have both and they are each amazing.

Tabb

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09-10-2003 09:13 AM  14 years agoPost 8
Hoverup

rrElite Veteran

Golden Gulf Coast - USA

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What Tabb said

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09-10-2003 09:38 AM  14 years agoPost 9
Astro30

rrApprentice

Hawaii

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Yea, I gotta agree with Tabb too

Eolo Pro--Hacker C40 12t--Kontronik Jazz 40-6-12--GY 401--9253

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09-10-2003 05:08 PM  14 years agoPost 10
Randall

rrApprentice

Oliver BC

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Ok I need to know what I'm missing
I am using the CMS 200 gyro, only gyro I've ever owned actually.
I'm sure some or all of you guys have tried both, can you tell me exactly what makes the GY 240 better then the CMS 200?

And well we are at it, I have another question pertaining to the brushless ESC.
It seems most of us are using the PHOENIX 10 ESC with all it's wonderful programmable features.
They recommend using the fixed throttle type for fixed pitch helicopters and the Governor Mode for collective pitch helis.
Now for those who don't know what the governor mode is, it sets up your ESC so that your throttle stick position determines motor RPM rather then just apply a certain voltage as most ESCs do.
The question is, if the governor Mode is good for CP helis, why wouldn't it also be good for FP helis?
I know, I know, I should just go program my ESC and try it, and I probably will, but I would like to hear some feedback from others who may have already tried it, or be using this mode to fly.
It seems it should be easier to hold a steady hover if you can hold a steady RPM, that's my thinking anyway.

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09-10-2003 05:25 PM  14 years agoPost 11
Hoverup

rrElite Veteran

Golden Gulf Coast - USA

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Altitude changes on a CP are controlled by varying the pitch of the main rotor blades. The Gov mode attempts to maintain a constant RPM through these changes (trys to prevent bogging or overspeeding). The rpm that we set to is the sweet spot for the motor, gearing, rotor blades and battery pack that we are flying so as to achieve the optimum trade between power and endurance. Electric motors tend to be most efficient at 80% throttle or above within limits.

The FP heli altitude changes are controlled via headspeed changes due to the rotor blades being set to fixed pitch. Putting the ESC in Gov mode eliminates this vital control capability. There are other forces at work on the heli's altitude and rate of change in altitude besides the RPM. Wind is a classic example. FP's tend to balloon in wind and without control of the headspeed you could watch your heli go off never to be seen again or fall to the earth like a Wabbit Elmer Fudd just shot

Cheers - Boyd
AMA 80393
Major USAF
Retired

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09-10-2003 05:43 PM  14 years agoPost 12
Randall

rrApprentice

Oliver BC

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Thanks for the reply Boyd
I understand the wind does effect things when flying, but that is true as well for a specific throttle setting too.
The difference I see is that when you set your throttle to hold a hover with standard ESC throttle (forget the wind for a second) as the battery continues to drain the voltage will drop slightly one second to the next and so you will lose a slight bit of power, thus your heli will begin to drop lightly.
Now the governor Mode, should actualy compensate for this battery drain as it continues to hold a specific RPM.

You said "The FP heli altitude changes are controlled via headspeed changes due to the rotor blades being set to fixed pitch."
Well esentially isn't the Motor RPM and Head speed one and the same?

Just trying to understand things, hope you don't mind my re-questioning

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09-10-2003 05:58 PM  14 years agoPost 13
Hoverup

rrElite Veteran

Golden Gulf Coast - USA

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Well esentially isn't the Motor RPM and Head speed one and the same?
No motor speed and head speed are quite different due to the gear train ratio. i.e. motor rpm will always be > headspeed

The point I may be missing from your original post is what you are trying to achieve?? If you believe that Gov mode will keep an FP heli in an altitude stable hover than I think you have missed the point. The only thing that would do this is a barometric altitude sensor that provided an input to vary the rpm to hold at a set altitude. This is getting way too esoteric for me. The solution is to go CP and then use the Gov mode where it was designed to do productive things.

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09-10-2003 06:23 PM  14 years agoPost 14
Randall

rrApprentice

Oliver BC

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LOL
sorry, I'll try and make it a little more exoteric,,, of course if we keep using words like that it won't help.

What I meant by head speed and motor RPM being one and the same, was that if you increase one, the other increases in direct proportion to the other.

Thought I should re-phrase what I'm trying to ask.

If altitude control in a FP heli is controlled by head speed, as you say, and if head speed is directly proportional to motor RPM, then wouldn't having precise control over motor RPM such as in the Governor Mode give you better altitude control, like the ability to hold a hover?

Anyway, you don't have to reply to the question if you don't want to. It was just something on my mind that seemed to make sense to me. Probably the best way to answer my question is for me to just try it myself and see.

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09-10-2003 08:13 PM  14 years agoPost 15
Hoverup

rrElite Veteran

Golden Gulf Coast - USA

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09-10-2003 10:54 PM  14 years agoPost 16
MarkMan

rrNovice

Chattanooga, TN

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sorry, I'll try and make it a little more exoteric...of course if we keep using words like that it won't help
Are we allowed to use words like that in this forum? I've been leaving them out of mine lately

MarkMan

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09-11-2003 12:08 AM  14 years agoPost 17
Hoverup

rrElite Veteran

Golden Gulf Coast - USA

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Only if they are misspelled

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09-12-2003 03:00 PM  14 years agoPost 18
hblearner

rrApprentice

Perth, Australia

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How well is this HH gyro works on HB? My century piezo gyro is driving me crazy. Does it lock the head very well on HB like on bigger heli Eolo, Voyager & Corona?
Since GY240 has to be placed horizontally do you place it on the tail boom?

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