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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › High speed needle.
01-14-2011 09:00 PM  7 years agoPost 121
Zman

rrKey Veteran

Florida

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Yep, I guess I should reword my above statement. I am confident that the flip flopped piston WAS the problem. Hopefully, after swapping it back, you dont find new problem from the possible hot runs.

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01-14-2011 09:01 PM  7 years agoPost 122
marco

rrApprentice

Santa Rosa , Ca - USA

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For us rookies out here , can we get an explanation of piston direction ? The piston isn't symmetrical ?

-Marc

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01-14-2011 09:06 PM  7 years agoPost 123
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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The piston ring is split (otherwise it would be difficult to get into the piston groove).

In the piston groove is a pin, to locate the split in the ring to a certain orientation.

If you look in the intake side of the cylinder, you will see a "tooth" hanging down. This "tooth" covers the split in the ring when the piston is at the bottom of it's travel, and IF the piston ring is oriented properly.

If it's backwards (like in this case), the split is on the other side (exhaust), and is not protected by and sealed by the "tooth".

I do think the Piston is symmetrical, so the timing wouldn't be different, which is why it DID run, but the fact that the piston ring was leaking may be why it had to be run so rich.

Conjecture at this point until I get it running in my heli.

Chris D. Bergen

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01-14-2011 09:14 PM  7 years agoPost 124
marco

rrApprentice

Santa Rosa , Ca - USA

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Gottcha , Thanks Chris .

Being a rookie, and if you have the spare time, I would like to say test AS IS to duplicate what Seismic had been going thru . But if you guys know for sure the piston orientation is the problem , then switch now .

Either way this is going to be a good lesson for us all .

Thanks for doing it Chris .

-Marc

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01-14-2011 09:38 PM  7 years agoPost 125
Wayne Parrish

rrVeteran

Apex,NC,USA

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I know how an engine will "stink" when it runs hot and blows up,FIRST hand from my big block dragboat racing days !

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01-14-2011 09:56 PM  7 years agoPost 126
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Yup saw that before reading the rest of the posts

I would venture to guess that SeismicCWave put the piston on the other way when he took things apart to clean it.

Also, what's with that green head gasket?

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4154 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3230 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1485 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 254 flts

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01-14-2011 10:44 PM  7 years agoPost 127
Flying Tivo

rrKey Veteran

Monterrey,NL,Mexico

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Gasket

Its also missing a piece of gasket, probably when taking it apart.
Either way, its a good rule of thum to put new gaskets when taking apart an engine.

Felipe

If life throws at you lemons......Squirt some lemon juice in the eye of your enemy!!!!

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01-15-2011 12:26 AM  7 years agoPost 128
Dave Willis

rrVeteran

Sevierville, TN USA

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I Can't Wait

Futaba AMA 6679 IRCHA 675 VHA 11

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01-15-2011 02:46 AM  7 years agoPost 129
SeismicCWave

rrVeteran

Hilo, Hawaii

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>>So my question is, and we may never know the answer, is WHEN? Has it been like this the whole time, or did SeismicCWave install it backwards at some point?<<

Ok this is purely based on my memory. I am not saying who did it. I remember seeing the split of the piston ring before taking apart the engine to clean the stuck piston ring. So if that is the case the piston came back from Al that way. I doubt Al would have put it together backwards but I never took it apart until the piston ring was stuck.

So if I can see the split on the piston ring I have to be looking at the exhaust port. The piston ring does not drop down far enough to view through the intake port. Am I correct? Some one correct me if I am backwards here.

I distinctly remember lining up all the parts exactly as it was and installed it the same way. Again I did remember seeing the piston ring through the exhaust port.

Again I really doubt Al put it back that way so I will have to take responsibility for it.

If it is indeed a simple matter of piston orientation problem then that is really wonderful and Chris did a hell out of a job by just looking at it.

Oh one more thing Chris. The brown stuff is rust. I do live in Hawaii with acid rain and a lot of salt in the air.

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01-15-2011 03:21 AM  7 years agoPost 130
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Ring

If you look in the intake side, there is a little knobby thing that extends down for lack of better words which allows the ring at the pinned end to remain in the cylinder wall at BDC.

So the pin (or where the ring halves meet) is on the intake side not on the exhaust side.

Did you indeed remove the circlips and press the piston pin out to remove the piston from the connecting rod? This would be the only way it would have possibly been put back 180 degrees out of phase.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4154 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3230 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1485 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 254 flts

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01-15-2011 04:31 AM  7 years agoPost 131
SeismicCWave

rrVeteran

Hilo, Hawaii

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>>So the pin (or where the ring halves meet) is on the intake side not on the exhaust side.<<

Ok can I actually see the gap of the piston ring on the intake side? Does the ring actually travel that far down on the intake side?

I remember seeing the gap of the ring before taking the cylinder head off to un-stick the piston ring.

>>Did you indeed remove the circlips and press the piston pin out to remove the piston from the connecting rod? This would be the only way it would have possibly been put back 180 degrees out of phase.<<

Yes I did. I did not want to damage the piston or the ring so I pressed it out and cleaned the piston and the ring under a magnifying glass.

I thought I took it apart and put it back together the same way. I remembered seeing the gap on the exhaust port so I assembled the gap on the exhaust port again.

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01-15-2011 05:01 AM  7 years agoPost 132
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Answers

Can you see the gap on the intake side? No. That's why there is the knobby extension thing to keep it enclosed on that side.

Are you sure you saw the gap on the other side? If so was this a new engine from the dealer or a 2nd hand motor? Maybe someone else before you took it apart and put it back together incorrectly?

Per the last paragraph if you remember right then the only explanation is that either the motor was 2nd hand and could have been disassembled before or if not I guess everything is possible it was put together wrong but I would expect that to be rare from a trained professional.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4154 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3230 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1485 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 254 flts

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01-15-2011 08:58 AM  7 years agoPost 133
shawmcky

rrElite Veteran

Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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To be honest it would be highly unlikely that this motor came out of Hansons with the piston reversed,this is such a basic mistake for an engine builder that only a novice could make it.The ends of the piston ring and location dowel should never be visible through a port and it is lucky indeed that it did not catch and break.Was this a second hand motor?As Rbort says there is a small "Wart"in the port that is designed to keep the ring gap and dowel covered at bottom dead centre.If unsure you should mark the components in relation to their fitment.

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

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01-15-2011 04:44 PM  7 years agoPost 134
tbr

rrNovice

East Coast

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I would venture to guess that SeismicCWave put the piston on the other way when he took things apart to clean it.
Unlikely maybe, but not impossible. I received an engine from a very well known builder that after two starts the jug was loose, because he didn't torque down the head. Now mistakes happen with the pros. I think the great thing about this is Chris Bergen gets it in his hands and immediately finds the problem. Shares it with us, and we have one more bit of information to add to the book.

SeismicCWave will get the engine back to use again,and if he ever takes one apart he'll remember piston position if nothing else.

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01-16-2011 07:15 PM  7 years agoPost 135
SeismicCWave

rrVeteran

Hilo, Hawaii

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At this point it makes no difference who put the piston on backwards. The whole point is that Chris found the potential problem and that is better than not being able to see anything wrong.

So the real pudding now is how does the engine behave when Chris fires is up.

I am so glad that Chris is doing this for me and found something wrong. The most frustrating part is to know there is a problem but can't find what is wrong.

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01-16-2011 07:56 PM  7 years agoPost 136
SeismicCWave

rrVeteran

Hilo, Hawaii

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>>Are you sure you saw the gap on the other side? If so was this a new engine from the dealer or a 2nd hand motor? Maybe someone else before you took it apart and put it back together incorrectly?<<

Yes, that was the reason why I took the engine apart. I saw the gap stuck together very tight and the piston ring did not move when I move the crack shaft. Usually I can see a small movement on the piston ring if it is free.

So I knew the ring was stuck and decided to take it apart to clean it.

The engine was bought brand new and I returned to Al for repair after the first few flights because it would not run right.

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01-16-2011 10:37 PM  7 years agoPost 137
Dave Willis

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Sevierville, TN USA

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Can't wait to hear what Chris has to say.

Dave

Futaba AMA 6679 IRCHA 675 VHA 11

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01-17-2011 01:12 AM  7 years agoPost 138
SeismicCWave

rrVeteran

Hilo, Hawaii

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>>Can't wait to hear what Chris has to say.<<

Be patience. I am sure he has lots to do if he is that good in customer service to all his customers.

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01-20-2011 09:14 PM  6 years agoPost 139
Chris Bergen

rrElite Veteran

cassopolis, MI USA

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OK, engine is reassembled and mounted in my heli. I will post pics in my gallery for any interested in following how I swap engines out.

Chris D. Bergen

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01-20-2011 09:48 PM  6 years agoPost 140
SeismicCWave

rrVeteran

Hilo, Hawaii

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I see that changing engine is a lot easier when the helicopter is upside down. What do you use to hold the helicopter in place? I put my gasser on top of my tallest underslung camera mount to get to the bottom of the helicopter. Not very easy to do.

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