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HelicopterAerobatic 3D Contest › PIro Flip Direction
09-04-2003 04:44 AM  14 years agoPost 1
Baron

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Huntsville, AL

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I have been learning piro flips on the simulator, but I have been doing it with right rudder. My friend told me that I should do it the other direction. Is there really a big difference between the two directions? I am way more comfortable doing it to the right and stirring CCW. Thanks

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09-04-2003 08:07 AM  14 years agoPost 2
DOKEY

rrProfessor

Northamptonshire UK

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I have been trying to learn them over the last couple of weeks, can manage 3 flips in a row at the moment, and they look controlled(to me anyway!!)

I always try to practice both ways, saves relearning later on, but out of preference i prefer left rudder piros, That way i can easily adjust the piro rate as my thumb isnt stretched to its max and is more relaxed.

I dont belive in there is such a way as right or wrong direction, its a matter of what your more comfortable with.


Ryan.

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09-04-2003 08:09 AM  14 years agoPost 3
stardotstar

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Sydney Australia

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Only thing I can think of would be the power demands of driving the tail - ie torque wise or countertorque wise...

This may be significant with smaller ships?

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09-04-2003 09:24 AM  14 years agoPost 4
Augusto

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US

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both ways are needed...

To the left it's easier on the engine because you're going with the torque. To the right is the preferable direction for piroflipping/pirouetting autos. The reason is that during autos the tail gets its energy from the main blades so going to the right goes with the "torque" and robs less energy from the blades. Ideally you need to learn both ways left for powered ones and right for autoing ones.

Augusto.

Avant Aurora Ultimate

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09-04-2003 03:10 PM  14 years agoPost 5
Baron

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Huntsville, AL

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Thanks for the relpies guys. If it's based on power demands, is it more critical with smaller helis? Would a Fury Extreme with an OS .91 C-Spec be able to do them to the right. Don't get me wrong... I am definately going to practice them to the left, but I'm just curious.

Also, how should the throws be set up for piro flips? On RealFlight, I find myself hitting max cyclic in every direction (on high rates), and still getting behind the rotation sometimes. Should I bump up the cyclic rate, or slow the piro, or both? Thanks

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09-04-2003 06:04 PM  14 years agoPost 6
Augusto

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Actually neither.

Cyclics are usually a bit out of phase respect to what the heli needs. It's just due to the lag between the stick input and the actual servo response. The faster the piro rate the bigger the offset is. You need to get used to adjusting your cyclic inputs to be a little bit ahead of the maneuver. In real blinding fast piros and if your servos are not to too fast the delay can be almost a whole half piro so your cyclics kind of reverse themselves. Once you get used to adjusting automatically to that it becomes like second nature.

Here's where digital fast servos give you an advantage, the faster your servo response the less the time delay and offset you need to adjust to making those maneuvers less difficult.

Regarding the cyclic rates, they will only affect your "flipping rate". In other words it will only affect how many pirouettes you use to do a complete main disc flip. Lower cyclic inputs will make the flipping portion of the piro-flip take longer so there will be more piros per complete main disc flip.

Regarding yor question about left and right piros under power. Any heli can do them both ways under power. You will only notice a remarkable difference in fast forward piro-flight when the power needed for the main blades plus the power needed to piro to the right into the wind is not enough so the tail gives up.

Augusto.

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11-21-2003 08:11 AM  14 years agoPost 7
Bonsai

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Bacolod, Philippines

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Augusto:
I can do piroflips on the G2 left and right all day long ..However I dont feel I have any control over where the ship is heading, Im just reacting to upright or inverted and have no contorl over its direction, I have tried adjusting my cyclic rotation speed and inputs,, but Im not having much luck. What do you think Im doing wrong? Until I master it on G2 I will not attempt to do them at the field, To scared of what could happen.
Thanks
Dean

If your gonna Crash.. make it look Good

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11-21-2003 08:18 AM  14 years agoPost 8
DOKEY

rrProfessor

Northamptonshire UK

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Try playing with your collective, slightly out of time and off she goes on a walk.


Ryan.

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11-21-2003 08:48 AM  14 years agoPost 9
Augusto

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US

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Try first with simple flips

The easy way to understand how to move piroflips around to wherever you want is the same as in simple flips.

For instance, if while doing your simple flips you want to move to the right you use some carefully timed aileron input to make the flipping rotor disc slant slightly to the right so it starts moving to the right. The same applies to the left.

To move a simple flip towards you what you do is time the cyclic pitch so that you apply more cyclic pitch towards you when the disc is starting to face you or away from you if you want to move it away from you.

If you master that while doing simple flips then the pirofliping one is just the same concept but while pirouetting.

Augusto.

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11-21-2003 11:42 AM  14 years agoPost 10
Bonsai

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Bacolod, Philippines

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Thanks I will try it and see if I can gain control. I guess the Big secret is ...Timing.....
Thanks again
Dean

If your gonna Crash.. make it look Good

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11-21-2003 03:37 PM  14 years agoPost 11
Vinnie

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Miami Beach, Florida

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hmm

Might be a dumb question but Bonsai did you try practicing with the Time factor set below 100% (i.e. slower)?

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11-24-2003 11:12 AM  14 years agoPost 12
Bonsai

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Bacolod, Philippines

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Vinnie

No actualy I haven't tried adjusting anything on the G2. I finaly got it to fly just like my extreme and dont want to mess that up.... So it is harder to learn cuz everything is pretty fast but if I can master it on G2 than when Im at the field its tooooooooo easy.hehe

If your gonna Crash.. make it look Good

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11-26-2003 03:36 PM  14 years agoPost 13
w.pasman

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Netherlands

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Augusto

I dont see why the piro direction would make difference in autos. The 'natural thing' is not to rotate at all during an auto. So left and right should take the same extra energy?

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11-26-2003 05:45 PM  14 years agoPost 14
Augusto

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US

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The "natural thing" in a auto would be for the fuse to try to rotate just as fast as the blades on the way down so no energy due to friction would be wasted. For the gyro to hold the fuse heading in one direction it requires to use some of the blade's energy for the tail so the fuse will stay in one heading. The more the fuse is rotating with the blades the less the energy required to keep the fuse from rotating.

If you want to prove the point during a day with no wind try a perfectly vertical auto with a non driven tail heli so there's no wind to weathervane the heli and you'll see how the heli starts rotation in the same direction of the blades on the way down.

Augusto.

Avant Aurora Ultimate

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11-27-2003 02:57 AM  14 years agoPost 15
yapjy

rrKey Veteran

Singapore

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Did anyone use Expo when they are doing piroflips?

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11-27-2003 08:28 AM  14 years agoPost 16
derekandjennys

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Initially having trouble learning them on G2, I switched to low rate and practiced flipping slow from upright to inverted and make sure I had control and then continue and flip back upright. I was initially only going clockwise but have recently been working on the other since noticing most do them ccw. You will notice the G2 makes the piro faster ccw which goes with what Augusto is saying about power.
It is cold here now and I have only been able to try on my Freya 4 times now on 2 seperate flights. I was probably more worried here than the first inverted take off but after the first it gets easier every time. I was very excited that it did not just drop out of the sky. Thinking back every new thing has been equally exciting intially. It gets just a hair less scary each day so I try to make it out every day and keep at it.

I do have a question I believe you could answer Augusto. Do you and most other pliots if you know, set your rudder rate so that you can run the stick full limit, making it easier to concentrate on collective?

I am putting a Tempest together with a 601 and not sure how I shold set it up yet.

Derek

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11-27-2003 08:46 AM  14 years agoPost 17
Augusto

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US

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Actually I tell everyone that wants to learn them to do just that so they can forget about piro rate and concentrate on the rest. Afterwards you can turn it off to have full control for additional variations.

Augusto.

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11-27-2003 09:04 AM  14 years agoPost 18
derekandjennys

rrApprentice

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Do you have a general idea for the best rates on high and low. Not yet sure what set up is like with the 601 but I am sure it will be great.

Derek

It's been about 20 minutes since my last post and I am still waiting for my Tempest.

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11-27-2003 09:21 AM  14 years agoPost 19
Augusto

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US

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Usually around 70 to 85% with 75 being the most common value.

Augusto.

Avant Aurora Ultimate

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11-27-2003 04:18 PM  14 years agoPost 20
breedatrad

rrApprentice

NW PA

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Me Too

Hi Guys,

I'm working on these this winter, as well, and I find a piro rate of 360 Deg/sec (@ full stick) to be pretty comfortable. That's enough tail speed for "regular" maneuvering without being too fast to keep up with while learing the piro flips. I do them up high with my Freya, but that's it.
And yes, I too find myself just stirring in time with the tail's rotation without really knowing exactly where I am. I can visualize them (slowly) in my head though, and it's pretty cool when you start to get an idea of everything that's going on!

Brian

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HelicopterAerobatic 3D Contest › PIro Flip Direction
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