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HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsOther › Microbeast 2.0 vs V-Bar 5.1
01-12-2011 01:30 AM  7 years agoPost 141
Al Austria

rrElite Veteran

Gainesville, FL

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So what's your take so far? Pro's and Cons even. I've read the whole thread but find I'm having a hard time feeling what your feeling as a whole. Too early to ask?
Well, regarding flight performance I'd like to fly the V-Bar for a few more weeks to give it a more thorough evaluation. At this point though, I am pretty well decided that the Microbeast is more user friendly in regards to initial setup and tweaking. It is as close to plug and play as I have experienced in a FBL system.
This was likely the cause of your "loose" feeling cyclic. It was made worse due to the wind. The Optimizer should be used for the initial flight that is done specifically to optimize the cyclic and tail rates to be even at full stick throw (flip and roll will be the same rate as will right and left rudder).
Perhaps, I opted to leave them on as I figured I would be playing with the setup. As I understand it, the optimizers should be run every time a system parameter is changed. FWIW though, I couldn't really tell big difference between the flight before and the flight after I turned the optimizers off. I'd say the most dramatic improvement to the cyclic's performance occurred after I had simply increased the gain and agility settings.

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01-12-2011 02:48 PM  7 years agoPost 142
Zaaaguy72

rrElite Veteran

MN

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Well Al, your article has convinced me to give a Microbeast a try. I am not a Nitro guy, but I am going to buy a JS Frenzy 50 (Cheap), put some Savox Servos and a Novarossi .57 in it and see what the Microbeast can do. I should have the whole thing ready by next weekend. I am not the pilot that you are, but my skills are good enough to get a feel for the system.

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01-13-2011 02:21 AM  7 years agoPost 143
Al Austria

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Gainesville, FL

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Chris, I'd love to know what you think about the Microbeast. Let us know!

Here is the last flight I made this past Saturday with the V-Bar on the X5. This was one of the flights where the cyclic felt too loose for my taste. The wind that day didn't help much either.

Watch at YouTube

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01-13-2011 02:43 AM  7 years agoPost 144
Taipan

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Sydney, Australia

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Sweet flying as always Al!

Have you tried cranking up the main rotor gain until it oscillates then back off a bit as you would with tail gain? I do this for maximum locked in feel. Some people don't like this though as feels too robotic so they back off for a more natural feel. My flying style is set to 'precise.' Haven't tried the other styles!

It was pointed out to me the other day after a mate flew my 700E that the low agility I had made it harder for him to tic toc. He said Vbar tic tocs better on higher agility. My heli is on 80 & he preferred 100. I guess he is not used to moving the sticks more like I do as I prefer 80 for smoother flying.

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01-13-2011 08:24 AM  7 years agoPost 145
Sproket

rrNovice

Phoenix, AZ

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Al- could you describe loose cyclic feel a little bit more.

Slow to respond for elev maybe? or just not getting that locked in feel? or have to give it more cyclic stick to reach desired flip rate?

Just curious

thanks

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01-13-2011 11:00 PM  7 years agoPost 146
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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There is nothing slow about a V-Bar. V5.0 and above have near instantaneous response. Too many don't understand how to properly set up a V-Bar (like optimization, agility, gains, 0 and max pitch, etc.), or any flybarless setup for that matter. The idea behind providing the V-Bar Express version was to simplify it to make it easy for the non-tech types to use.

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01-13-2011 11:59 PM  7 years agoPost 147
Eco8gator

rrElite Veteran

Palm Beach, FL

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The response may be instant feeling but its not instant. Its only as fast as the Tx link + the time it takes to go through one software cycle.

What I think is significant is that Mikado(well Uli) has figured out how to give use a non synthetic feeling synthetic flybar

But I will say this about the BeastX...I just set one up for my own personal evaluation and it was extremely easy to setup... I didn't even really read the manual I just went straight to the menu setup pages and had at it...was done quickly.

Carlo

Xera Motors
ProBar
Minicopter
Thunder Power

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01-14-2011 12:06 AM  7 years agoPost 148
Al Austria

rrElite Veteran

Gainesville, FL

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Have you tried cranking up the main rotor gain until it oscillates then back off a bit as you would with tail gain? I do this for maximum locked in feel. Some people don't like this though as feels too robotic so they back off for a more natural feel. My flying style is set to 'precise.' Haven't tried the other styles!
I have not tried that. I'll play around with it over the next few weeks.
Al- could you describe loose cyclic feel a little bit more.

Slow to respond for elev maybe? or just not getting that locked in feel? or have to give it more cyclic stick to reach desired flip rate?
The rate was fast enough, but it was the response(latency) that was lagging slightly on the elevator, as well the cyclic not feeling quite as locked overall as I would have liked when flying IN THE WIND.

Just to be clear, these symptoms have mostly been eliminated after playing around with the gain and agility settings. I'd say now, the V-Bar is right there with the Microbeast when it comes to cyclic response.
There is nothing slow about a V-Bar. V5.0 and above have near instantaneous response. Too many don't understand how to properly set up a V-Bar (like optimization, agility, gains, 0 and max pitch, etc.), or any flybarless setup for that matter. The idea behind providing the V-Bar Express version was to simplify it to make it easy for the non-tech types to use.
Compared to other FBL systems, the V-Bar is definitely not lagging(pun intended) behind the pack in regards to cyclic response.

Now IMHO, there is currently NO electronic FBL system can match the response(latency) of a well setup flybarred model, but that discussion is best saved for another thread...

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01-14-2011 03:00 AM  7 years agoPost 149
Sproket

rrNovice

Phoenix, AZ

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Vbar 5.1 fine tunes the cyclic rings even more. Soon to come Im sure.

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01-14-2011 03:08 AM  7 years agoPost 150
helicraze

rrElite Veteran

Victoria - Australia

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This was likely the cause of your "loose" feeling cyclic. It was made worse due to the wind. The Optimizer should be used for the initial flight that is done specifically to optimize the cyclic and tail rates to be even at full stick throw (flip and roll will be the same rate as will right and left rudder). The procedure is to take off and immediately do full stick flips, rolls and piros is each direction. This should not take long, maybe a minute or two. After this, you should land and quickly disconnect the battery where you land - don't carry the heli back to your table/staging area. Reconnect the V-Bar PC Control Panel and turn Optimizer to OFF. Now you are good to fly with balanced cyclic.
The opt do not make the rates even, it affects the control loop and makes it respond/stop quicker to match the blades and flying style.

I don't even use opt, i manually tweak myself to get it how i want!

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01-14-2011 03:29 AM  7 years agoPost 151
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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Yes, 5.1 has a much better/quicker algorithm on the cyclic. I did have a slight tail bobble on one of the earlier beta versions (5.0.20). However, it must have been an anomoly or bad parameter setting as no one else reported it. We are now on the preliminary final version, beta 5.1.2. Everyone should like the cyclic improvements and the inclusion of the governor. Uli and crew did a great job with the new computer Control Panel. It should make setup simpler and less error prone. It's getting close.

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01-15-2011 06:57 PM  7 years agoPost 152
Andy from Sandy

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Bedfordshire, UK

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Uli and crew did a great job with the new computer Control Panel.
A physically new control panel or a new version of the software for the existing control panel?

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01-15-2011 08:21 PM  7 years agoPost 153
Zaaaguy72

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MN

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New software.

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01-18-2011 02:00 AM  7 years agoPost 154
Al Austria

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Gainesville, FL

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Put around 14-16 flights on the V-Bar/X5 this past weekend. Weather was BEAUTIFUL for FL this time of year, slightly cool and little to no wind. No changes made to the V-Bar since last weekend. The calm conditions allowed me to REALLY get an idea of what the V-Bar is capable of.

First off is tail performance. Piro starts and stops are super fast to accelerate and decelerate, yet, very clean and smooth with absolutely no wag. Piro reversals are also a joy to do with the V-Bar, there is no hesitation and the response in both directions is extremely balanced. Piro consistency during traveling maneuvers really boosts confidence. I tried some very fast traveling piro-loops with a slow to moderate piro-rate and at no point did the tail ever feel "loaded" as if it were about to stall and blow-out. During all aspects of flight, the tail response is SUPREMELY consistent and locked-in. Without question, I'd say the V-Bar's tail gyro is the best I've flown to date.

Now on to cyclic. I have to say, although the cyclic on the V-Bar isn't quite as quick and snappy as a flybarred model, it responds very predictably. I said before that the cyclic had a "synthetic" feel. I think a better way to describe it would be "SIM-like". If I were to come out of a fast outside loop, I did NOT need to modulate my elevator deflection on the final quarter in order to keep the elevator from "unloading" and speeding up as if I were flying with a flybarred model. In fact, provided that I entered them with enough forward speed, I was actually able to perform some rather large outside loops while holding just a slight amount of negative pitch and forward elevator, no corrections needed throughout. Just like the tail-rotor, the cyclic responds CONSISTENTLY during all aspects of flight and has a very locked in feeling.

I have to say, the more I fly the V-Bar, the more I like it...

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01-18-2011 02:14 AM  7 years agoPost 155
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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I REALLY envy your weather... (snow that melted to solid ice here, every step is a challenge)

As for the Cylic, Ulrich is listening to you guys that do like "paddle feel" or non-robotic, I cannot guarantee it will come in 5.1 but there will be a solution for you in the near future.

Basically a small stick accelerator for stick center, plus another expo curve for that acceleration, it's the same as tweaking the paddle weight etc, giving much more snappier response around center.

In all it allows you to tweak the ... out of the feel.

Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more

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01-18-2011 02:27 AM  7 years agoPost 156
haha101

rrNovice

jacksonville

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Darn you Al! the more you talk about how much you are liking the vbar the more anxious i am to be in daytona to test it =(

Jeremy Strickland Evolution Helicopters, Optipower USA, Have a question? Send me a message!

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01-18-2011 02:36 AM  7 years agoPost 157
Al Austria

rrElite Veteran

Gainesville, FL

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I REALLY envy your weather... (snow that melted to solid ice here, every step is a challenge)

As for the Cylic, Ulrich is listening to you guys that do like "paddle feel" or non-robotic, I cannot guarantee it will come in 5.1 but there will be a solution for you in the near future.

Basically a small stick accelerator for stick center, plus another expo curve for that acceleration, it's the same as tweaking the paddle weight etc, giving much more snappier response around center.

In all it allows you to tweak the ... out of the feel.
Sounds great MrMel, looking forward to the update.
Darn you Al! the more you talk about how much you are liking the vbar the more anxious i am to be in daytona to test it =(
Ha! I think you'll love it man, just you wait.

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01-18-2011 02:39 AM  7 years agoPost 158
Clarence Creer

rrVeteran

Fort Worth, Texas

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As for the Cylic, Ulrich is listening to you guys that do like "paddle feel" or non-robotic, I cannot guarantee it will come in 5.1 but there will be a solution for you in the near future.
I tested this feature today and it is awesome. Even if you don't like a flybar feel you may still like this feature. To me it works like a center stick accelerator. I don't want to say too much more about it just in case it does not make the 5.1 cut.

Team Kontronik Team minicopter/PeakAircraft
VTeam EvoPowerBattery

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01-18-2011 06:04 PM  7 years agoPost 159
Tyler

rrElite Veteran

Chicagoland area

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Is there a cost to update V-bar products to new firmware? If so, will this continue? Finally, what is the price, if any? I'd hate to get stuck in an update money pit.

Enjoy things that money can buy IF you don't lose the things money can't buy.

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01-18-2011 06:05 PM  7 years agoPost 160
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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No, this 5.1 upgrade is free for 5.0 users.
(each major revision cost money to upgrade, i.e. from 4.0 -> 5.0, all updates inbetween is free)

Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more

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HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsOther › Microbeast 2.0 vs V-Bar 5.1
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