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10-09-2010 04:45 AM  7 years agoPost 81
Justin Stuart (RIP)

rrMaster

Plano, Texas

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The purpose of a trim flight with the V-bar is to keep the disc level during a pirouette even when your CG is not directly under the main shaft. The way to avoid doing a trim flight is to get your CG right on by use of lead in the tail or shifting the batteries around.

With the V3.16 software, you did not have the ability to do a trim flight. Therefore the solution for an out-of-balance helicopter was to mix aileron and elevator into the tail such that a little bit of aileron or elevator would be given whenever you gave rudder control. This was difficult to get correct.. The newer software does this for you.

The purpose of having adjustable phasing with the V-bar is to compensate for a situation where you have absolutely no way to mechanically adjust the phasing to zero degrees. Scale heads (such as with an MD 500 5-bladed head) have the phasing about 90 degrees off (as can be seen in this picture). This must be adjusted in the V-bar software to avoid elevator/aileron interactions:

Early swash drivers were simply modified washout bases. That is why they allowed you to adjust the phasing which was actually an undesirable characteristic (unless you were using some sort of frankenFBL head where the geometry was off).

New swash drivers are incorporated into the headblock. This requires that the balls on the pitch arms be exactly the correct length so that the control arms are exactly vertical.

If you have a home-made flybarless setup where you have the inner swash balls perhaps 10 degrees off from the blade grips balls, you can adjust the phasing in the software to compensate. But this is a very undesirable situation.

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10-09-2010 05:12 AM  7 years agoPost 82
James Kovach

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canton, oh - US

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Watch at YouTube

Fast Forward to 6:20
From Video

......so many times if have done it perfect and I come out to the field and I get interaction.... it depends on Blades and Other stuff... ...... some Blades actually need a few degrees of offset for them to work best and you don't get interaction.......
He then goes on to explain how to see if you have any phasing issues. Now Mr.Mel is talking about a 2 Blade heli here and the importance of getting the phasing set correctly and how something as simple as blades will affect the phasing.

Isn't Mr.Mel the VBar Guru?

PS> Wow, what was the original Topic of this thread?

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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10-09-2010 01:54 PM  7 years agoPost 83
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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As I mentioned above and as mentioned in the article linked above, if you change blades, flybars, paddles and/or dampers, odds are you will need to revisit your Phase tuning methods.
Sounds like another can of worms to worry about, especially dampers.
Wow, what was the original Topic of this thread?
Yeah, it's a spill your guts thread anyway with a lot of information in it. Only problem with off topic is it will be hard to find the info if you want to revisit it. Maybe I can change the topic title.

edit: it worked.

Ace
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10-09-2010 02:30 PM  7 years agoPost 84
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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MrMel is definitely the V-bar guru. The only one who knows more about the V-bar than him is Ralph, and he's the guy who invented the software. Mikado gives MrMel all of the software ahead of time to do the beta testing on.

The issue he's talking about is because someone is using non-FBL blades. The way you can tell if your blades are going to give you phasing issues is if you hang them by the hole. Ideally they will hang straight down. Some kinds of blades will hang a little bit forward and some blades will hang a little bit backwards. Blades like the new Radix FBL or Edge FBL will hang straight down.

If you have some of the new flybarless blades which are made to go with the new non-adjustable heads, then everything should be perfect and all you have to do is screw on the head, connect the two rods, attach the blades, and go fly. No more fiddling with paddles. No more fiddling with washout bases. No more tweaking swash drivers. None of that.

As long as your main shaft is straight and your feathering shaft is straight (and your blade grips are not bent), then after a crash you can be back in the air again with a minimal amount of fiddling. The entirety of the flight characteristics of the helicopter are stored in the computer.

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10-09-2010 03:05 PM  7 years agoPost 85
James Kovach

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canton, oh - US

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No where in that video does he make mention that this only happens with Non-FBL blades.

There is a little more to it than just the CGs of the blades. How much a blade will lead/lag and how much they flex can change phasing. Also, damper will change phasing as well. The softer the damper, the larger the effect.

The point here is that phasing issues happen with Flybar and Flybarless helis. With Flybarless, the controller will compensate for minor phasing issues. That does not mean they are not still there.

Yes FBL is simplier as there are less parts in the head to deal with. But it is not that brainless.

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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10-09-2010 06:51 PM  7 years agoPost 86
windy62

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USA

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I still haven't seen where phasing affects the TAIL!

AS I understand it, phasing is an aileron/elevator issue ONLY. If your phasing is wrong, you will have interactions between aileron and elevator, it has NOTHING to do with the tail...
Get into a tail in hover. Now do a 3/4 to full collective climb straight away from yourself while feeding in forward elevator till the heli is nose down... IE 1/4 of a flip or flipped 90 degrees. At this point the tail should have not moved. the tail has rotated left or right, you need to adjust your phasing.
Maybe you meant to say that if the heli had ROLLED right or left, your phasing is off.

windy62

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10-09-2010 07:59 PM  7 years agoPost 87
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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Phasing affects the tail the same way that pulling back to do an elevator loop and putting a little bit of aileron will affect the tail--but since you've got a heading hold gyro, it just kind of makes the helicopter corkscrew. It's not like you get a 1/4 piro when you pull back on a loop.

You know what happens when you pull the cyclic stick into a corner for a roll/loop, and when you get back around again your tail is off to the side? Same kind of deal.

I haven't had a problem like this since I first started fiddling with FBL systems 3 years ago and didn't know what I was doing. Now I just make sure that the blade grip balls exactly line up with the inner swash balls, and that the control rods are perfectly parallel with the main shaft, and then I never have any interactions. It helps to use blades without any forward/backwards weight bias (i.e. hangs straight down) and to have stiff dampeners. If you have soft dampeners (or if your dampeners wear out), then you tend to get lead/lag effects which complicate the picture. Solution is to put in stiff dampeners every once in awhile.

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10-09-2010 09:40 PM  7 years agoPost 88
James Kovach

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canton, oh - US

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windy,

Watch the video I posted above. he demonstrates what you will see happen with the tail if your phasing is out.

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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10-10-2010 12:31 AM  7 years agoPost 89
theriddick45

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United States

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Plus many off topics... I love the new title, at least we can talk almost about anything.

Let's keep talking and learning more and more!!

Suzi Janis 800e & 700e 3blade both w/Ikon

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10-10-2010 01:04 AM  7 years agoPost 90
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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With that small change in the topic name, a miracle happened. It's like an open forum now. We can talk politics, religion, you name it--without fear of being "off topic".

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10-10-2010 03:01 PM  7 years agoPost 91
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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I would still like to keep it to gasser related.

Ace
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10-10-2010 06:02 PM  7 years agoPost 92
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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Justin, I don't think my FBL rotorhead is much different than any one else's, but the difference MAY be in the control setup, with our Mechanical NON-CCPM no interaction controls.

I say MAY be, because there ARE guys flying FBL NOE with CCPM machines, such as Theriddick45, with great success. I don't see why your Spectra G could not be setup for FBL NOE as well.

Of course you will want to get a good running engine in their FIRST....

Chris D. Bergen

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10-10-2010 09:35 PM  7 years agoPost 93
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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Getting rid of the vibration sensitive V-bar would be nice on my Spectra.

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10-10-2010 09:49 PM  7 years agoPost 94
windy62

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USA

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Maybe you should cure the vibrations!!

I know sensitive subject...

windy62

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10-10-2010 09:52 PM  7 years agoPost 95
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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Wally is brewing up something good for me in his secret laboratory. He assures me he can make a 30cc with minimal vibrations.

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10-10-2010 11:28 PM  7 years agoPost 96
James Kovach

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canton, oh - US

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At some point you will grow tired of waiting.

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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10-10-2010 11:32 PM  7 years agoPost 97
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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No worries. I'm sure it will be will be worth it.

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10-11-2010 01:46 AM  7 years agoPost 98
ocr231

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Webster MA

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After wally has named me his new arch-enemy i have to ask.Was the first engine worth the wait?

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10-11-2010 02:14 AM  7 years agoPost 99
classic

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All over the place!

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So has anyone ever just removed the paddles off their flybar and tried to fly it without them just to see how thier heli flew?

Which is worse, ignorance or apathy? I don't know and I don't care!

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10-11-2010 02:32 AM  7 years agoPost 100
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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You can't just take the paddles off. You'd have to pull off the flybar and then glue the washout base to those little pins with some JB Weld. Otherwise the inner race of the swash will not rotate. After that you'd take the long control rods from the inner swash and connect them to the pitch arms, but you need to put double balls on the pitch arms first.

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