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10-08-2010 10:04 PM  7 years agoPost 61
theriddick45

rrVeteran

United States

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Chris Bergen is not the only one that has been flying without the electronic/stab system. There is others including me that has done it. I converted my preddy gasser as well as my rex 600 nitro. I did not upgrade nothing special on both helis the only thing I did was purchase a FBL head removed the FB head from swash up, install the FBL with the follower setup the facing, pitch, and ciclic and the real key to fly without the stab system lies on the main blades. If you use 3d type it will be extremely unstable but controllable but in the other hand if you use FAI/F3C type blades you will be able to fly very stable, if you set your heli a bit nose heavy even better.

I hope this don't create any dilemma I respect all opinions from anybody I just want to express my own experience about FBL NOE.

FBL NOE is possible with no worries if you use the right setup you will be able to achieve it.

Now if you are going to do extreme 3d FBL NOE is going to be hard when you do piro flips and other maneuvers like it.

But Rolls, loops, tic tocs, are no problem, you can do it.

Also I tried the stab system bstx on the gasser and it work pretty nice, just to let everyone know. I was every impress with the unit.

If your are thinking going FBL specially for gasser go for it, in my opinion this is the future to make your gasser faster on rolls, tic tocs and every other maneuvers and your engine will bugg much much less. I really love that part.

Lately I have tried 7.5 gear ratio on my gasser with great success the only thing is that you will have a maximum of HS of 1800 and this is putting your engine at 13500. I tested pitch ranges of +- @ 10,12,13 and 14 and at the 14 pitch range with 1700 HS and 12750 rpm on the motor it was plenty of power as well as very fast due to the 14 pitch.

Well hope this help!!

Suzi Janis 800e & 700e 3blade both w/Ikon

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10-08-2010 10:38 PM  7 years agoPost 62
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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I always felt this is the better way

Lately I have tried 7.5 gear ratio on my gasser with great success the only thing is that you will have a maximum of HS of 1800 and this is putting your engine at 13500. I tested pitch ranges of +- @ 10,12,13 and 14 and at the 14 pitch range with 1700 HS and 12750 rpm on the motor it was plenty of power as well as very fast due to the 14 pitch.
Higher number gear ratio so the motor spins faster and you turn the rotors slower. This for me seems to produce a more constant head speed than trying a lower gear ratio number and turning up the head speed to compensate the engine rpms to be in the same range.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4136 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3200 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1430 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 196 flts

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10-08-2010 10:45 PM  7 years agoPost 63
theriddick45

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United States

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Rbort...

This is something to consider for the future gassers setups. Once you do this setup you will love the way your engine will recover from a load is very quick. I love it!!

Suzi Janis 800e & 700e 3blade both w/Ikon

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10-08-2010 11:05 PM  7 years agoPost 64
Justin Stuart (RIP)

rrMaster

Plano, Texas

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Here is my tribute to the guys who can pilot a flybarless helicopter without electronic stabilization through loops, rolls and tic-tocs:

Do you really think my Spectra would survive more than a few seconds in the air without a flybar, even with some really heavy FAI blades? I would be nice to get rid of the vibration sensitive V-bar on my gasser since this is a major source of my problems, but I have my doubts.

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10-08-2010 11:40 PM  7 years agoPost 65
kogibankole

rrKey Veteran

albuquerque/ibadan

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Why not try it without any stabilization to actually see if the Heli flies ok.

if im not blade bogging youll find me pack puffing

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10-08-2010 11:50 PM  7 years agoPost 66
JuanRodriguez

rrProfessor

The Villages,​Florida

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Why not try it without any stabilization to actually see if the Heli flies ok.
Why don't YOU try it and let us all know how you make out ????

Been there, done that and old enough to know better.....

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10-09-2010 12:01 AM  7 years agoPost 67
Justin Stuart (RIP)

rrMaster

Plano, Texas

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I want to see some pictures of Chris' and theriddick45's setup. I just don't believe it is possible unless you are extremely talented on the sticks.

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10-09-2010 01:00 AM  7 years agoPost 68
theriddick45

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United States

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My pics are in my gallery but I don't really want to get in to arguments I respect every body's opinions.

I will say this once again FBL without the stab is possible. All you need to achieve is the normal setup on your heli, is really not that big of a deal. Phasing, ciclic and pitch. Set your pitch at mid stick 0 degrees.

If you know how to fly good you can do it all you need is to learn the new behavior of the heli which is going to be fast if you setup the ciclic with more than 9 degrees but 6,7,8 will be good. I did all till I got all the way up to 10 on ciclic and 14 on pitch with great results.

I hope this help to understand more about this and if someone needs more info I will be glad to help the best I can...

Suzi Janis 800e & 700e 3blade both w/Ikon

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10-09-2010 01:01 AM  7 years agoPost 69
AceBird

rrElite Veteran

Utica, NY USA

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This for me seems to produce a more constant head speed than trying a lower gear ratio number and turning up the head speed to compensate the engine rpms to be in the same range.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think the purpose for turning up the headspeed would be to get faster reactions (crack 3D). If all you were interested in is consistency you could run higher headspeeds by cutting back on your max pitch. The speed of your maneuvers would be nearly the same. Your consistency might even improve because you are not taxing the engine and you have more stored energy in the rotors.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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10-09-2010 01:06 AM  7 years agoPost 70
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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I am not about to do this but How do you know how to set the phasing and what determines when you have it the best you can get it?

Ace
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10-09-2010 01:29 AM  7 years agoPost 71
James Kovach

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canton, oh - US

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I am not about to do this but How do you know how to set the phasing and what determines when you have it the best you can get it?
This is actually quite simple and should be done with ANY heli that has an adjustable phasing setup.

Get into a tail in hover. Now do a 3/4 to full collective climb straight away from yourself while feeding in forward elevator till the heli is nose down... IE 1/4 of a flip or flipped 90 degrees. At this point the tail should have not moved. the tail has rotated left or right, you need to adjust your phasing. You need to be mindful that you do not give any aileron input while doing this as it will give you the same result as if the phasing is out. I wish I could tell you if the tail goes left, adjust phasing clockwise and so forth, but I do not remember right off. Just make and adjustment, if it gets better then you went the right way.

This should be done anytime you change Blades or paddles as both of these will influence the phasing of the Rotor Head.

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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10-09-2010 01:38 AM  7 years agoPost 72
windy62

rrApprentice

USA

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Please explain... If your phasing is off the heli will roll with an elevator input, not rotate the tail..

The phasing being discussed is swash phasing is it not? How does the swash affect the tail?

windy62

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10-09-2010 01:43 AM  7 years agoPost 73
Justin Stuart (RIP)rrMaster - Plano, Texas - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

The phasing being discussed is swash phasing is it not? How does the swash affect the tail?
If your phasing is off, you mix aileron with elevator. Thus instead of applying pure elevator, a little bit of aileron is mixed in. So it does not affect the tail directly, but indirectly (due to the aileron's effect on the tail).
Correct me if I am wrong but I think the purpose for turning up the headspeed would be to get faster reactions (crack 3D)
I had mentioned turning up the headspeed on a 30cc motor because apparently there are reports that the Spectra's clutch is burning out because 12,500 is too slow for the clutch to fully engage. As Carey said, the Spectra was designed for a 231 spinning much faster than the 30cc is designed to spin. In order to keep the clutch from burning out, my suggestion was to run the 30cc at 13,500 like the 231. I've been told this was a bad idea because the faster you rotate the engine, the more it vibrates, and the 30cc is already prone to vibration due to the large reciprocating mass of the piston.
I am not about to do this but How do you know how to set the phasing and what determines when you have it the best you can get it?
With a flybarless setup, the way you set the phasing is to rotate the swash driver until the two control rods are exactly parallel with the main shaft. If you have the phasing off, when you do loop, the helicopter will corkscrew a little bit. A lot of the new flybarless heads have the phasing fixed because the swash driver is a part of the headblock. This avoids the hassle of having to adjust phasing.

If you look on the Aurora head, you can see the balls on the inner swash are driven by the two arms coming off the bottom of the head block. Phasing is fixed in this example and represents the continued evolution of the flybarless head design:

If you look on my Spectra head, you can see that the swash driver is not attached to the head block, thus it is possible to rotate the swash driver and get the phasing off where the inner swash balls are not exactly lined up with the balls on the blade grip pitch arms. This causes unwanted aileron/elevator mixing that causes the helicopter to corkscrew in loops and rolls.

You can also see how I had to add spacers to the end of the pitch arms to get them to perfectly line up with the inner balls below. I took stock "negative delta spacers" and ground about 1mm off the side. This gave me the correct alignment for the head.

^^^This was how my Spectra looked in much better days.

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10-09-2010 02:00 AM  7 years agoPost 74
James Kovach

rrKey Veteran

canton, oh - US

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The phasing being discussed is swash phasing is it not? How does the swash affect the tail?
If your phasing is off, you mix aileron with elevator. Thus instead of applying pure elevator, a little bit of aileron is mixed in. So it does not affect the tail directly, but indirectly (due to the aileron's effect on the tail).
Justin FTW.

Think about what happens when the heli rolls slightly left or right while doing the maneuver I explained above and you will have your answer.

And he is also correct in that if you do not have a heli with an adjustable phasing setup, then you will need to mix aileron with elevator to correct this.

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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10-09-2010 02:04 AM  7 years agoPost 75
Justin Stuart (RIP)

rrMaster

Plano, Texas

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Justin FTW.

Think about what happens when the heli rolls slightly left or right while doing the maneuver I explained above and you will have your answer.
Yep. Aileron/elevator interaction.

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10-09-2010 02:46 AM  7 years agoPost 76
4 stroke flyer

rrApprentice

Dowagiac,MI

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I just don't believe it is possible unless you are extremely talented on the sticks
I fly With Chris, and know he flys the gasser without any electronic stabilization. He does rolls, loops, and any other manuever wanted.

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10-09-2010 03:01 AM  7 years agoPost 77
classic

rrElite Veteran

All over the place!

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I want to see some pictures of Chris' and theriddick45's setup. I just don't believe it is possible unless you are extremely talented on the sticks.
What do you think they used back in the late 80's early 90's for their flybarless helis??

It really isn't that hard to fly one if it is set up properly.

Which is worse, ignorance or apathy? I don't know and I don't care!

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10-09-2010 03:17 AM  7 years agoPost 78
James Kovach

rrKey Veteran

canton, oh - US

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With a flybarless setup, the way you set the phasing is to rotate the swash driver until the two control rods are exactly parallel with the main shaft. If you have the phasing off, when you do loop, the helicopter will corkscrew a little bit. A lot of the new flybarless heads have the phasing fixed because the swash driver is a part of the headblock. This avoids the hassle of having to adjust phasing.

If you look on the Aurora head, you can see the balls on the inner swash are driven by the two arms coming off the bottom of the head block. Phasing is fixed in this example and represents the continued evolution of the flybarless head design:

With a flybarless setup, the way you set the phasing is to rotate the swash driver until the two control rods are exactly parallel with the main shaft. If you have the phasing off, when you do loop, the helicopter will corkscrew a little bit. A lot of the new flybarless heads have the phasing fixed because the swash driver is a part of the headblock. This avoids the hassle of having to adjust phasing.

If you look on my Spectra head, you can see that the swash driver is not attached to the head block, thus it is possible to rotate the swash driver and get the phasing off where the inner swash balls are not exactly lined up with the balls on the blade grip pitch arms. This causes unwanted aileron/elevator mixing that causes the helicopter to corkscrew in loops and rolls
The phasing is affected not only by the timing of the inner swash ring with the rotor head. Blades, flybars, paddles and dampers will also affect it as well. So I cannot agree with your "Phasing is fixed in this example and represents the continued evolution of the flybarless head design:" statement as now you have to use a Mix to correct for an out of phase condition. If your radio does not have enough mixes to take care of this, although most modern computer radios have enough, then you are going to be SOL. But it is also a little bit more "work" to try and mix it out as you will have to work with multiple mixes to correct this rather than just move a simple Swash driver one way or the other. So IMO, it is a step backwards to go with a non-adjustable phasing head design.

Does an adjustable Swash driver always correct and out of phase condition. Not always. Sometimes it takes a combination of the Swash driver and mixes to get it totally taken care of. But I would rather attempt to do it mechanically first rather than rely on a total electronic solution.

Nick Maxwell, Curtis, Bert K and many other pros have talked about this many times if you do not care to take my word for it. Here is an article on a pretty respectable website that also talks about this.....

http://www.helituning.com/index.php...c-tracking.html

As I mentioned above and as mentioned in the article linked above, if you change blades, flybars, paddles and/or dampers, odds are you will need to revisit your Phase tuning methods.

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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10-09-2010 04:03 AM  7 years agoPost 79
Justin Stuart (RIP)rrMaster - Plano, Texas - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

As I mentioned above and as mentioned in the article linked above, if you change blades, flybars, paddles and/or dampers, odds are you will need to revisit your Phase tuning methods.
With a FBL system such as the Mikado V-bar, you never adjust the phasing unless for some reason your geometry is wrong and cannot be mechanically corrected (such as with a 5 bladed head). There is no need for any mixing in the radio. And you certainly don't need to adjust the flybar or paddles on a flybarless head. This is why the Aurora head in the picture I posted earlier (and most all of the new heads flybarless heads) have the swash driver fixed to the bottom of the head block. In 2008, a lot of the flybarless head designs (such as the Logos) were using a separate swash driver, but because pilots were having problems with elevator/aileron interaction from the phasing being off (and due to the added simplicity of it), this year's crop of flybarless heads all seem to have the swash driver affixed to the bottom of the head block. A fixed swash driver and fixed phasing really does represent the evolution of the flybarless head. Here are some examples:

The new Miniature Aircraft FBL head:

The new RJX FBL head:

The new Trex 700 FBL head:

The new Curtis Youngblood FBL head:

And my favorite, the new Avant FBL head:

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10-09-2010 04:28 AM  7 years agoPost 80
James Kovach

rrKey Veteran

canton, oh - US

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With a FBL system such as the Mikado V-bar, you never adjust the phasing.........
In 2008, a lot of the flybarless head designs (such as the Logos) were using a separate swash driver, but because pilots were having problems with elevator/aileron interaction from the phasing being off......
These two statements are contradictory.

The VBar Software allows you to adjust the Phase Angle as does the Skookum Software. I have not got into the Total G software yet, but I would not be surprised if it is not there as well. I have also read some posts by CY about using mixes with the Total G to "straighten" up loops and rolls. This kinda leads me to believe he has not made that adjustable in his Software but leads one to believe that phasing comes into play even with FBL systems.

I would assume in the case of the VBar, that when you are doing your Auto Trim flights, the phase angle is one of the parameters that it adjusts for you.
Yeah the swash may not be level at the extreams IF your using crap servos. And even with minor offsets at te extreams the gyros will fix any issues any ways. A good fbl system will probably feel perfect even with the phase off set a couple degrees....

Don't get me wrong though it is best to have a perfect geometry. Less for the gyros to fix but typically what I've found is a little off one way or the other doesn't matter when gyros are in the loop
That quote is from Eco8gator (Carlo). The ProBar Dude. Which takes me back to I would rather be able to fix something mechanically first and use software as a secondary fix.

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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