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HelicopterOff Topics News & Politics › God Did Create Mankind.
01-03-2011 09:12 PM  6 years agoPost 2861
Dusty1000

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I don't feel thats true Dusty.
I interpreted RC Dbutz's meaning as being, read up on all the religions, then decide which God to believe in. Unless I interpreted it wrongly. I don't see how anyone who already believes in one religion could give them all equal credence.

Dusty

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01-03-2011 09:24 PM  6 years agoPost 2862
Dennis (RIP)

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I interpreted RC Dbutz's meaning as being, read up on all the religions, then decide which God to believe in. Unless I interpreted it wrongly. I don't see how anyone who already believes in one religion could give them all equal credence.
It would seem it would depend on the depth of your belief and your ego for that belief.

If you are so stuck on yourself and your belief, then you just might refuse to accept others belief and totally deny them and their belief. There is some of that. There used to be a lot of that. We have even seen a bit of that here in this forum with one guy claiming that his God is the only God.

But, again, I believe that is the exception to the rule and not the rule.

If it were the rule, we would never accept Muslims in our country. That would be the rule. Its not.

There are a few problems with that. But, again, not the rule here. Not in this country and certainly not in your country.

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01-03-2011 09:32 PM  6 years agoPost 2863
outhouse

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dbuts i can understand where your coming from and I wish there was some middle ground between myth and reality but sadly there is not.
how many people actually think they know (or are capable of understanding) how and why we are all here
well its actually very obvious with proper education in the fields were dealing with.

from a normal everyday joe walking down the street it can be confusing, it is science. If it was easy everyone would be a scientist.

make no mistake man evolved, it goes so far back to multi celled and then single cell life forms.

If you look at the math and how fast life appeared once the earth was in a more stable state it would amaze you.

we are all made up of the same elements the universe is composed of.

We are here by luck alone, if the asteroid would not have hit and taken out dinosaurs we may never have had a chance to evolve into our current state.

Nature is beautiful in a way and at the same time so dangerous to know that we are but a blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things.
Evolution seems like the way, but nobody knows what/who set that in motion.
abiogenesis and they do know allot more then you think. we have a tonnage of material from mars and it would only take one rock with bacteria to seed it all. fact is i dont buy that, if you look at the sheer diversity of life that sprang up on the earth in the last 65 million years, you will understand one important fact.

you cant keep life down it will always find a way

the math we are no alone is amazingly in support we are not alone
Then the logical conclusion is that this whole thing just happened and came from nothing.
this is a common mistake. we did not come from nothing, we came from the materials of the universe.

it is a fact we know very very very little of the universe

do me a favor when you get some time and watch the last vid I posted with one of our top physicist's and top biologist's

this is all just a matter uof education in the proper fields
Want to believe in a creator?
my whole point is in the 200,000 yeasr homo sapiens have been on the planet they have has some kind of a god or spirit, the fire spirit the smoke spirit that carries away evil, sun gods and moon gods to get man through the night.

there is not one isolated primitive tribe today that does not beleive in a spirit,,, and the further you get away from a modern society and the further isolated these people are the more whacked out and strange their belief's are.

there have been thousands of gods and spirits in 200,000 years and based soley on the geographic area you are born,,, will determine which of these gods you believe in.

these gods since the beginning of man have been imagined to answer the questions man did not know

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01-03-2011 09:39 PM  6 years agoPost 2864
Dennis (RIP)

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Belief in religion doesn't go up and down though, only down. Worldwide. Besides, AFAIK the first survey ever taken in the U.S. was that one in 1990. Are you aware of another one?
Not really a survey as survey's go Dusty.

But a lot of historians believe that the fall of the Roman empire was because of religious reasons. There is some aspect of that, that would lead to that conclusion.

I am sure they did not have surveys back then. But, it certainly was a significant event with religious overtones. Possibly a low point for religion?

Seems so.

Please understand. I am certainly not a scholarly historian. Just a guy trying hard to put some down who wish others to give up their Faith so that there own lack of Faith is reinforced. Thats not a slam at you specifically Dusty. You seem to be willing to discuss this like a reasonable person. Reasonable tolerance is not part of some others methods. You have to admit, there certainly is some of that lack of reasonable tolerance going on here.

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01-03-2011 09:40 PM  6 years agoPost 2865
Dennis (RIP)

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dbuts i can understand where your coming from and I wish there was some middle ground between myth and reality but sadly there is not.
See what I mean about unreasonable lack of tolerance of others beliefs?

A prime example.

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01-03-2011 10:05 PM  6 years agoPost 2866
Dusty1000

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It would seem it would depend on the depth of your belief and your ego for that belief.

If you are so stuck on yourself and your belief, then you just might refuse to accept others belief and totally deny them and their belief.
It's not about tolerance or accepting that others believe what they believe, it's about giving each religion an equal chance. How could you do that if you already believe in one of them? By definition, it would be impossible. The only way to do so would be to get rid of your faith in your particular God beforehand. And without faith, you wouldn't be religious.

Dusty

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01-03-2011 10:13 PM  6 years agoPost 2867
Dusty1000

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Not really a survey as survey's go Dusty.
Exactly.
But a lot of historians believe that the fall of the Roman empire was because of religious reasons. There is some aspect of that, that would lead to that conclusion.
Ok if you go back far enough in history, yes believe in various religions falls and rises as the religions themselves go from being the religion of the day, to a myth or pagan religion. Even the Christian religion must have started off small, then grown into something big.

According to an article I read recently, there were no fundamentalist Christians until the 50s, which was when people started to question what they had been taught. As Europe abandoned religion, the fundamentalist movement started in the U.S. as a way of saying, ''that'll never happen here''. Even so, it is starting to happen. There has certainly been no return to religion in Europe, as people aren't going to go back to believing everything they've been taught. Not to mention there are less religious people to do the teaching. The information age is upon us, and there's no going back

I can't see why things would work out any different in the U.S.

Dusty

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01-03-2011 10:20 PM  6 years agoPost 2868
outhouse

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Even the Christian religion must have started off small, then grown into something big.
remember the jews stole there god from pagan myths

thats why the same god chistians worship now magically used to require animal sacrifices. [plus allot more simularities]

how people worship this man made god has changed the whole time, 1000BC when hebrews started writing and collecting books around 500BC to make the OT there god has changed and beliefs

then the god magically evolved with jesus movement to meet christians needs. and worship of teh same god changes again.

from jesus death to now worship has always changed

imagination is a beautiful thing

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01-03-2011 10:21 PM  6 years agoPost 2869
Dennis (RIP)

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There has certainly been no return to religion in Europe, as people aren't going to go back to believing everything they've been taught.
That does not mean that it absolutely cannot return Dusty. Its hard to say NEVER. I do occasionally. But, when it comes down to it, NEVER is seldom ever.

Just from what little I have seen in history, its likely it will return. Possibly even in your own country.

Again, thats a view of a guy not a scholarly historian. Just a guy with an opinion.
The information age is upon us, and there's no going back
The information age is upon us and could work the other way also. There is no evidence it can't.

Never say never Dusty.

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01-03-2011 10:22 PM  6 years agoPost 2870
Dennis (RIP)

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imagination is a beautiful thing
Yours ain't.

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01-03-2011 10:32 PM  6 years agoPost 2871
Dusty1000

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That does not mean that it absolutely cannot return Dusty.
No of course it doesn't, but it does look most unlikely to happen. Why would it? I edited my post as you were typing yours to add, who's going to do the religious teaching?

Believing in a religion used to be the norm over here. It would take a strong will to be the first to proclaim that you didn't believe what everyone else believes. You would think that in such a situation, one would question if one was doing the right thing.

Even today in the U.S.A. with the majority of the public being Christians, I'm sure you agree that if one has been brought up to believe in the Christian religion, same as all their friends and neighbours, that person would be more inclined to keep believing in that religion, than someone who had been brought up in a non-religious environment, would be likely to take up that religion.

That's why I think that not only will there not be no going back to religion, but the rate at which people give up religion will keep increasing ever faster

Dusty

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01-03-2011 10:33 PM  6 years agoPost 2872
Dusty1000

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how people worship this man made god has changed the whole time,
It would have been so much simpler if they had just stuck to worshipping the sun

Dusty

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01-03-2011 10:37 PM  6 years agoPost 2873
RC Dbutz

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FYI, I didn't even come close to reading this whole thread, so I many say something already said. If so, sorry.

Dennis, that faith thing is still not an apples-to-apples comparison. It's not a matter of faith that the chair will hold my weight. If I did not see a chair, I would not try to sit. Sure, it could be a weak or broken chair, or some sort of hologram and I'd fall on my rear, but I sit because I physically see the chair. The religious type of faith, to me, is like sitting when there is no chair and having faith that one will miraculously appear out of thin air. It just doesn't seem like a logical choice, where sitting because you actually see the chair makes a lot more sense.

Dusty, yes, I agree that if someone is already head-over-heels into a religion, it is very difficult for them to consider what others have to say. My wife's family spends every week doing a bible study. They study the same religion over and over to affirm what they believe, but they are not willing to alternate and check out what other religious texts or scientific theories have to offer. When someone is so deep and they believe without questioning I think that can be a dangerous thing and shows a very closed mind. The way some of these types defend their religions reminds me very much of how a beaten wife will defend her husband:

Watch at YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXgnpuKoWhU

It's just irrational to not consider all arguments. I do understand though why people choose to believe one religion over another. Like Dennis pointed out, it gives them comfort in this life and makes them feel better that there is an afterlife. We all know where bliss comes from, and it's not from asking more questions. Also, the idea of death is one that is crippling to many, so many of those types can feel better if they make themselves believe that there is an afterlife.

Personally, I'd love it if there was some sort of afterlife. Whether it's reincarnation, being a ghost, an angel, or going to heaven, those are all far more comforting than the idea that it's it, we're done (which is a possible outcome). Another cool ideal is one of energies, that we are part of a whole, whether alive or dead, and that our "spirit" returns to the energy that is all around us. They're all really interesting ideas, but I don't have what it takes (or lack thereof) that will allow me to believe any of these theories with 100% certainty just because I wanted to and forced myself to do so.

Outhouse, I have no doubt that man evolved (as has religion). There are aspects of religions that just plain boggle my mind. I don't know how anyone can believe anything out of genesis. There is prove and scientific evidence that man evolved over millions of years and that dinosaurs lived before us. I don't understand how the devout Christians could completely deny scientific evidence. How evolution got started is the mystery. It could have been a scientist from another universe who came here to set it in motion, it could have been a god, it could have just started all on its own with the right mix of ingredients (like from and asteroid). Either way, none of us were there, so we just don't know. Like you said, the math behind it is amazing. With an infinite amount of time and possibilities, essentially every possible outcome is destined to happen. There was probably life before it happened on Earth and there will probably still be some sort of life after Earth is gone. At some point, more than one form of life will exist concurrently, and at another point different lifeforms will come into contact with each other. The possibilities are literally endless, how could anyone settle on just one? Another thing you mentioned Outhouse is that life came from the materials in the universe...so, where did those materials come from? Then where did the source of THAT come from? Doesn't matter, we all believe that it all came from nothing if you trace it back far enough. I will take the time to watch that vid when I can, but for the most part man, you an I agree, I just want to keep an open mind.

I'd say, if you were to compare my religious views to anyone, they'd be close to Bill Mahar's (as well as political views for that matter).

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01-03-2011 10:38 PM  6 years agoPost 2874
Dennis (RIP)

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That's why I think that only will there not be no going back to religion, but the rate at which people give up religion will keep increasing ever faster
Well, you could have a point there Dusty. I am not trying to say you are dead nuts wrong.

But, the possibility of tough times are much more highly likely to hit the entire world in the near future and stay with us for awhile while we all get our crap together.

Guess who people naturally turn to in tough times?

See what I mean about never say never?
It would have been so much simpler if they had just stuck to worshipping the sun

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01-03-2011 11:33 PM  6 years agoPost 2875
Dusty1000

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shows a very closed mind
You'll see quite a lot of that in this thread.

Although some of the believers are prepared to discuss the 'possibility' of evolution, or even accept it to a certain extent, there are others who just laugh at the concept. It's quite amusing

Dusty

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01-03-2011 11:38 PM  6 years agoPost 2876
Dusty1000

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Guess who people naturally turn to in tough times?
Looking at history again, when the German currency collapsed after WW1, the Germans turned to Hitler, because they thought he could lead them out of the mess they were in.

After WW2, the British turned to the government, who turned to socialism.

At the same time, the Germans had no option but to knuckle down and work hard, as their occupied country paid war reparations. That mindset is what built them the industrial base they have today.

I can't think of any population, or even group of people, that turned to God in tough times. Can you?
See what I mean about never say never?
No

Dusty

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01-03-2011 11:43 PM  6 years agoPost 2877
Dennis (RIP)

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I can't think of any population that turned to God in tough times. Can you?
I certainly can.

Here ya go:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Guess which population that was.

The beginnings of America were tough times.
No

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01-03-2011 11:52 PM  6 years agoPost 2878
outhouse

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Doesn't matter, we all believe that it all came from nothing if you trace it back far enough
I dont think the uiniverse came from nothing, the big bang i know very little about other then it created the universe and space with it at the same time. I think there was something there for all the material time and space to be thrown out. What and where the material came from before 14+ billion years ago is a great question. That is just our primitive view at this point in time.

it has been explained to me like this. we are two dimensional creatures living in a multidimensional existance, we have no concept or view of the other dimensions because we have never had enough energy to experiment with the science involved.

there is no center of our universe at this point in time. Its like being out in the middle of the ocean, no matter where you are or look from your point of refference is the same.

I did watch your vid

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01-04-2011 12:41 AM  6 years agoPost 2879
RC Dbutz

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There's lots of good vids on that page:

http://www.youtube.com/user/thethinkingatheist

Though my conclusion is not as absolute as an Atheist, I lean towards their logic.

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01-04-2011 01:01 AM  6 years agoPost 2880
outhouse

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Watch at YouTube

seen it before

good stuff

thank you

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