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ProModeler Scorpion Power
HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsV-Bar › T-REX 450 Pro, Flybarred vs Flybarless
06-03-2010 04:29 AM  7 years agoPost 1
Al Austria

Elite Veteran

Gainesville, FL

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Alright guys, I'm finally going to get to try a V-Bar(mini) for myself. Like the title says, this will be going on a T-REX 450 Pro. I'll be picking up a Mikado FBL 450 head as soon as they get back in stock.

To make the comparison as fair and objective as possible, I will be using ALL of the same electronics on the flybarless setup that were used on the stock flybarred setup(ie. ESC, motor, servos, battery, etc.). I'll be putting much emphasis on actual flying characteristics of both setups.

I am relying on the input of all of the experienced V-Bar users for setup advice, to ensure that my setup with the said equipment is as optimized as it can be.

Here is the most recent vid of my T-REX 450 Pro at B-Ham, running a set of Edge blades(flybarred version of course). Again, to be fair, I'll be picking up a set of Edge flybarless blades to run on this setup.

Watch at YouTube

And the aftermath of this flight:

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06-03-2010 09:21 PM  7 years agoPost 2
ACKopter

Senior Heliman

Florida

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Hey Alan, If you get a chance stop by the field tomorrow. I'll be meeting Ron there in the AM and you can pick his brain on the V-bar system and check out his new E-Avant in the process. Besides, I havent seen you in awhile. Plan is to stay most of the day weather and high temps permitting.

Chris

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06-05-2010 02:49 AM  7 years agoPost 3
Al Austria

Elite Veteran

Gainesville, FL

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Driver issues with Windows 7 64-bit

It was good flying with you guys, until the rain showed up. Ron, your Aurora is beautiful, I'm jealous.

I've run into some issues connecting my V-Bar to my laptop. I'm running Windows 7 64-bit and I've downloaded the latest "d" software from the vstabi site. Upon connecting the powered unit, a prompt pops up that says "installing device driver software", and then shortly after another prompt pops up saying that the "device driver software was not successfully installed".

Going into the device manager and trying to update the the driver software automatically yeilds a screen stating that "the best driver software for your device is already installed" which is obviously not right.

I've tried picking from a list of device drivers on my computer and two selections, both named "VStabi Controller" come up. Both of these drivers are not digitally signed. I've tried disabling the integrity checks with cmd and even while running in Test Mode, I still get a screen that says Windows cannot verify the digital signatures for the drivers. The Driver Switcher program isn't recognizing my VBar either.

I'm sure I'm not the first person to have this issue, anyone know what I'm doing wrong?

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06-05-2010 12:30 PM  7 years agoPost 4
ACKopter

Senior Heliman

Florida

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We stayed out there till after 5 and a few more rain storms. It was worth it though and Eric even made it by for a few flights. He said he was nervous from not having flown much lately but you could'nt tell by watching, he looked smoother than ever to me and totally in control.
Glad you managed to come by as it was good seeing you again. Sorry but I can be of no help whatsover with the thread topic.
Chris

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06-06-2010 07:32 AM  7 years agoPost 5
Al Austria

Elite Veteran

Gainesville, FL

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I was able to get the drivers installed, thank MrMel!

I must say, the manual for the Mini V-Bar could be much better. Calibrating the TX, as simple a task it is, is inadequately explained in the manual. My experience with the Skookum SK360 actually helped a great deal here.

Beyond that, the rest of the basic electronic setup was very easy. I was pretty much done as far as achieving proper servo directions/corrections and squaring the servos/swash in less than 20 minutes. I can see myself being able to complete this portion of setup more rapidly than properly adjusting a flybarred head. Now the only task is getting this setup flying as well as the stock flybarred head.

I'm really digging how clean the wiring is with this unit, almost too clean. Just got to get the head and a pair of blades and I'll be good to go.

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06-11-2010 08:05 AM  7 years agoPost 6
Al Austria

Elite Veteran

Gainesville, FL

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I should have the head and main blades here shortly.  Ought to be be able to do some initial testing and tuning this weekend.  Anyone have any tips for the first few flights(auto-trim, optimizations, etc.)?

Here are some wiring pics:


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06-11-2010 03:56 PM  7 years agoPost 7
mmc205

Elite Veteran

PA - USA

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you'll probably want to stiffen up the mikado 450 conversion head a LOT. my buddy had one on his beam e4 and it was very, very spongy. Its basically a gaui flybarless head thats labeled mikado

this one, right

http://www.readyheli.com/MIK4310-V-...41_p_35479.html

If so, you can try harder dampers, but we tried that to no avail. the solution i came up with was to manufacture two tubes that slide into the head, making the inner diameter smaller, so that the o-rings were pre-loaded (squished) by a pretty good degree. This stiffened the head up to the point where it felt similar to other logos. before this mode, we kept getting erratic collective/cyclic mixing mostly during punchouts and stops. not even in the same direction, it seemed to be random, probably based on blade position when the collective changed.

I'll check with my friend to see if he as the pieces i made, i made a few spares if i recall. You may get lucky and be able to find metal tubing that will fit right. I searched mcmaster carr and couldnt' find it however so i made them.

***Logo 600 vbar***Henseleit TDR vbar***

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06-11-2010 04:09 PM  7 years agoPost 8
mmc205

Elite Veteran

PA - USA

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found my drawing for making these if your interested.

I know this works well with stock beam dampers as i designed it around them as my friend already had a bunch.

***Logo 600 vbar***Henseleit TDR vbar***

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06-13-2010 07:29 AM  7 years agoPost 9
Al Austria

Elite Veteran

Gainesville, FL

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Thanks mmc205, some excellent info, the drawing will be especially useful.

Got the head and blades in earlier today and everything went on real nice. The dampeners on the Mikado head, as mmc205 pointed out, are pretty soft.

The first flight had no suprises. I went through the auto-trim procedure and there was only minor drifting. Had a full green bar after the initial trim "hop", and the following hover the machine locked in VERY well. I upped the yaw rate to 120 and the tail felt great, very smooth and had a linear feel. I tried a flip and found that the cyclic response was extremely sluggish, so I tried upping the agility. By the second pack, I had changed the stick response to "Hard 3D" and the agility was maxed out at 55. Aileron and collective response is getting pretty close to where it was with the stock flybarred head, but my elevator response is still unbeleivabley slow. Anyone know why?

I'm going to put more flights on this setup in the AM, should have some flying video as well.

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06-13-2010 11:45 PM  7 years agoPost 10
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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With 4.0 hard dampeners are great and to increase your elevator speed, increase your elevator ATVs.........Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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06-14-2010 12:21 AM  7 years agoPost 11
mmc205

Elite Veteran

PA - USA

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just wanted to mention al, i'm no skilled 3d flyer (i've seen your videos, your what i aspire to be as a flyer) but to me the dampers seemed really soft, i'm sure someone at your level would benefit having them as stiff as possible for the best control loop vbar can offer) Perhaps the stock gaui/mikado head is fine, upon feeling it however, i couldn't believe how soft it was compared to other vbar heads i've encountered.

***Logo 600 vbar***Henseleit TDR vbar***

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06-14-2010 03:48 AM  7 years agoPost 12
Al Austria

Elite Veteran

Gainesville, FL

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Ron, it's not so much the speed or rate I find sluggish with my elevator, but the actual initial and post input reponse(latency). Increasing the ATV will only increase the rate.

I agree with you completely mmc205,  the dampening on this head is entirely too soft for any kind of HARD 3D flying.  Although the Mikado head and the Gaui head LOOK very similar, the Gaui head actually has no dampening. In fact, it doesn't even have a spindle.  I did some extensive testing on a flybarless T-REX 450 SE V2 running the original Gaui head with an SK360. Here is an old thread with info on that particular setup: https://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/t469336p2/    

I put in 7 flight this morning and another 3 flights on this setup a few hours ago.  Tommy, one of the locals, was kind and let me use his Mikado control panel(which is REALLY nice BTW).  The first few flights of the day I felt as if the heli was slightly disconnected to my inputs.  I played with the agility and the cyclic/tail gyro gains over the next few flights and I felt the machine had started feeling better on the 3rd flight so I opted to turn the optimizer's off.  On the 4th flight the tail had developed a slight intermitent wag, which had not been present on any of the previous flights.  I lowered the tail gain 5%(80%) but the wag persisted.  On the 5th flight, I started getting some pretty interesting cyclic behaviours which, like mmc205 says, could be attributed to the overly soft dampening.  It was at that point I noticed that the dampeners had already started to wear out.  I had one of my friends get video of the 5th and 7th flights, which I'll post when they are available.      

I flew the last 3 flights a few hours ago with the optimizers back on and the heli flew like absolute crap.  The cyclic felt as if someone had added 1/4 second of latency to my radio, and it seemed as if my phasing had actually shifted.  Needless to say, I am pretty dissapointed with the stock Mikado head dampening and will look into a better dampening solution like mmc205 has provided.  There is one thing that I DO like about the V-Bar so far and that is the tail gyro.  Despite the intermittent wag and a single tail blow-out I experienced during a sideways loop, I must say the feel and piro-consistency of the V-Bar's tail gyro is probably the best I've ever flown.

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06-19-2010 03:01 AM  7 years agoPost 13
Al Austria

Elite Veteran

Gainesville, FL

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OK guys, here is one of the flights, I think this was the 7th. One more coming up shortly.

Watch at YouTube

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06-19-2010 03:07 AM  7 years agoPost 14
504Rone

Key Veteran

New Orleans, LA.

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How does the v bar tail compare to a Spartan?

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06-19-2010 03:35 AM  7 years agoPost 15
Al Austria

Elite Veteran

Gainesville, FL

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The V-Bar has a VERY smooth and linear feel to the tail, which I love. The V-Bar's piro rates are extremely consistent as well.

Personally, I've always felt that the Spartan gyros had WAY too much built in expo. It's pirouette rates, like the V-Bar, are also extremely consistent. It feels very locked in, maybe slightly more so than the V-Bar, but, it has a rather non-linear feel to it.

Personally, I like the way the V-Bar tail gyro flies out of pretty much any tail gyro I've ever flown. The cyclic, however, is WAY too slow to respond for any real "smackdown" type flying, IMHO.

Here is the 5th flight, this is a much better flight:

Watch at YouTube

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06-19-2010 03:48 AM  7 years agoPost 16
504Rone

Key Veteran

New Orleans, LA.

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Thanks. Have you ever flown the 3g?

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06-19-2010 03:54 AM  7 years agoPost 17
Al Austria

Elite Veteran

Gainesville, FL

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I've never owned one but yes, I have flown quite a few 3G setups, from a 450 Pro all the way to a 700N.

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06-19-2010 03:57 AM  7 years agoPost 18
504Rone

Key Veteran

New Orleans, LA.

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How do they compare to the v bar?

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06-19-2010 04:01 AM  7 years agoPost 19
BOOGIE

Elite Veteran

LAFAYETTE LA

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Nice! What motor? 3or4S? man that thing looks fast!

MSH USA / Lynx Heli Innovations

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06-19-2010 04:13 AM  7 years agoPost 20
Al Austria

Elite Veteran

Gainesville, FL

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504Rone, the 3G's tail gyro isn't quite as good as the Spartan or the V-Bar, but it isn't terrible, at least in any of the setups I've flown. For cyclic, I actually feel the 3G is MUCH more active to pilot inputs than the V-Bar, and it feels less "disconnected" than the V-Bar overall.

BOOGIE, I'm running the "old" stock 430SP motor that used to come with the super combo kits. Flying on 3S TP 2250 45C packs.

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ProModeler Scorpion Power
HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsV-Bar › T-REX 450 Pro, Flybarred vs Flybarless
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