RunRyder RC
 11  Topic Subscribe
WATCH
 8 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2      3     NEXT    >> ] 11102 views POST REPLY
Scorpion Power Scorpion Power
Helicopter
e-
Align
T-REX 250 › Back with 250SE tail wag....
05-31-2010 11:11 AM  7 years agoPost 1
HarveyR

rrVeteran

France - North

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Sorry to start yet another thread on this topic, but things just don't seem clear yet.

I had the problem and it more or less solved with the s9257 in replacement of the DS420. But it was far from perfect, it was just acceptable.

Unfortunatly, I crashed and bent the main shaft (only problem was this, + the pinion needed rebonding), rebuilt, and now the tail wag is a little worst and has shifted to the unacceptable... it's not much worse, but as is wasn't that good to start with, it's become unacceptable.

I've tried all sorts of stuff :

- trimming the tail blades (approx 8mm) --> a bit better

- messing with 750 delay --> no impact

- truning of governor mode --> no impact

- moving ball on tail servo horn outwards --> negative impact

- adding straps around the gyro --> no impact

Things left I'm going to try :

- move ball inwards BEHOND closest hole (I'm already at closest hole): I'll drill a new hole in the plastic, just next to the servo screw, as close in as possible

- move the gyro around and test with different foams at the same time: try putting it under the heli, just below the main axis

But I don't really think this will work.

Some questions to people with a working tail :

- What Setup do you have : Gyro + Tail servo + center to ball distance + whatever else that seems relevant

- What exact ESC settings do you have (gov yes/no, throttle reponse quick/medium/slow, number of poles, BEC voltage, ...)

- What Gyro setings to you have (HH/Rate, 1520/760, heli size/delay, ...)

Question : Do people with alternate gyros (GY401 for example) have problems? Would changing the Gyro fix it definitively?

Last question : Is there a descent alternative to the 250SE?

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
05-31-2010 12:40 PM  7 years agoPost 2
neilg.

rrVeteran

north of borston

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

s9257 in replacement of the DS420 got rid of any wag on my 450. i did not use the foam tape, i used a 3M grey double sided tape.

i wonder how many have junked the ds420.

In Nomeni Patri Et Fili Spiritus Sancti

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
05-31-2010 12:50 PM  7 years agoPost 3
dizzymarkus

rrVeteran

Oswego, NY

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Howdy ,
- What Setup do you have : Gyro + Tail servo + center to ball distance + whatever else that seems relevant
Inertia 860, JR ds290, 3.95mm center to center(as close to the center spline I could get it) --- homemade CF tail control rod w/ no guides, Micro Heli tail.
- What exact ESC settings do you have (gov yes/no, throttle reponse quick/medium/slow, number of poles, BEC voltage, ...)
NO GOV for me, completely stock settings
- What Gyro setings to you have (HH/Rate, 1520/760, heli size/delay, ...)
My HH is 19 using the gear channel endpoints as gyro gain adjustment, and my rate is 10 (I dont fly in rate -- set up only)----1520
Question : Do people with alternate gyros (GY401 for example) have problems? Would changing the Gyro fix it definitively?
No changeing gyros wont guarentee your problem to go away in my opinion, most, as yourself try to mask the problem putting a HUGE lol tail servo on a tiny allready porky 250 :0) Again INHO (who am I lol) the tail grips and slider from Align are terrible and the problem lies there.
Last question : Is there a descent alternative to the 250SE?
Good question -- once dialed in the Align 250 is awsome to fly -- qucik,agile and can get away from you ina hurry hehehe

Markus

ps I also didnt use any foam, I used thick servo tape andit works great.

I reject your reality and substitute my own :0)

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
05-31-2010 01:54 PM  7 years agoPost 4
HarveyR

rrVeteran

France - North

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

OK. Thanks for these details.

So then, here's my plan:

-I'll turn gov off

-Drill my super close hole in the servo horn to make the distance as short as possible (you wonder what the point is in having fast servos when everyone is doing this!!!)

-Test with some different double sided tapes (thinner and less foam)

-Test moving the gyro around the frame (but I can't see anywhere else that the gyro tray and underneath)

Well, at least I still have some things to test I guess, all hope isn't lost yet!

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
05-31-2010 02:59 PM  7 years agoPost 5
dizzymarkus

rrVeteran

Oswego, NY

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

stay with it man --once set its a blast

Markus

I reject your reality and substitute my own :0)

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
05-31-2010 08:40 PM  7 years agoPost 6
HarveyR

rrVeteran

France - North

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

OK... all tests are done : hole at 3.5mm from center. turned gov off. used different tapes and straps. use HH mode and rate mode. put gyro in different locations. Put original tail blades back.

None of this works, it still wags.

Infact, the tail wags whatever. With low gain it wags slowly and with high gain it wags fast. If too low it becomes uncrontallable because no tail hold. If too high it gets nervous wagging (it holds quite well, but just wags like mad).

What can I do next? Only thing I can think of is another Gyro.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
05-31-2010 08:56 PM  7 years agoPost 7
phattalon

rrApprentice

Muncie In

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I went through the same problem. The issue with the tail is the radial bearing can not take the pulling force. This sounds weird but it works. Take the 40mm or 42mm which ever came with your kit (the 42mm work better)and cut them down to 28mm. Go through gyro setup again and see how it works. The only way to blow out the tail on my 250 is to bind the rotor head in flight, for testing purposes of course. My gain with a gy520 and 9257 is 57% stock setting on esc.

Jason Russell

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-01-2010 07:48 AM  7 years agoPost 8
HarveyR

rrVeteran

France - North

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Hi,

Thanks for this, but unfortunately, cutting the tail blades is already done. I've just measured them and strangely they are exactly 28mm. This did make it better, but didn't fix the problem. I've already checked the radial force stuff: while pulling the tail blades out quite hard I can still turn them freely (I don't know how hard the centrifugal force actually pulls, but it can't be that much).

I see you have a GY520 (good futaba stuff) and not the stock GP720 (crappy Align stuff)... the more I think of it, the more I think this can be the only problem, everything else has been tried. Next time, I'll follow the popular advice : With Align, get the kit without the Align Electronics, because they are hit or miss. I think my one is miss.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-01-2010 09:05 AM  7 years agoPost 9
HarveyR

rrVeteran

France - North

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

OK... well that's it! After another few hours messing around (gain, HS, trimming, gyro mount, ...) I've finally crashed again because of this stupid tail (gain too high and it started spinning uncontrollably)! Bent main shaft and brocken spindle and probably a few other minor things, not expensive but just time consuming, I've spent more time on this piece of sh*t in the 2 last months than with all my other helies put together in 15 years.

My conclusion is that the only thing that has impact on this stupid tail wagging (besides changing Gyro which I haven't done yet) is trimming the tail blades down like hell and moving the ball in as close as possible (4mm about).

I trimmed mine down to 25mm (they are about 40mm to start with). Sure, it doesn't wag too much anymore (BUT it still does), but you'd better not need to take a tight turn!

I hesitated after picking the pieces up, walked past the trash can, and nearly dropped the thing in. Stop wasting time with this toy in the garden and get back to the field with the real stuff.

A bit angry right now. I'll be back when my mind is clear again, either with heli to sell either with some questions I guess.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-01-2010 11:48 AM  7 years agoPost 10
HarveyR

rrVeteran

France - North

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Ok... cooled down a little now. I've looked close and the spindle shaft is the only thing than needs buying (I already had a main shaft). I'll order it and should have it tomorrow... tests will continue (with other Gyro will be next step), I'd like to get this working.

Also, any one what the "Gaui Hurricane 200 V2" is like? It looks much in the same line as the 250SE, and videos show it fyling really well (on 2S)? Is there anything bad about this, as this seems to me to be a alternative to the 250SE?

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-01-2010 01:30 PM  7 years agoPost 11
dizzymarkus

rrVeteran

Oswego, NY

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

IMO they are two totally different birds and cantbe compared -- the Gaui is lighter uses 2s but it flies nicely also -- again you will need to mess with it to get it just right. Micros arnt for everybody -- they take patience, and tinkering to get "just right"

youll get it man, stay with it -- youll be happy when you get it right :0)

Markus

I reject your reality and substitute my own :0)

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-01-2010 04:30 PM  7 years agoPost 12
neilg.

rrVeteran

north of borston

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

tape does make a difference

In Nomeni Patri Et Fili Spiritus Sancti

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-02-2010 02:47 AM  7 years agoPost 13
blade slayer

rrApprentice

Maryland

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

i can't belive you still have problems with the tail,sorry to hear that. my 250 SE works perfect with all the stock stuff,the gyro works great,some of my friends use it on the 450 and 600 helis too. i am going to change the servo for the JR ds920,just cuz i like the jr servos.
i hope you can get your 250 going ,it is very fun and very nimble,i love it

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-02-2010 02:21 PM  7 years agoPost 14
HarveyR

rrVeteran

France - North

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Well, I hope to get it going too. In the meantime, I crashed my Century Hawk, it was warn out anyway, so I've bought a new one. That way I have a Gyro hanging around to test on the 250SE. As said, this will be my next test. But thinking of it, it could be the ESC/motor too, if they aren't working smoothly, that could surely cause a wag.

What's strange I repeat, is that even with low gain, the tail wags, it just wags slow (once a second or so) and large (30° or so), but it does wag. The wagging only disapears when gain is so low that I can't keep in in the air long enough to observe the wagging.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-02-2010 08:58 PM  7 years agoPost 15
HarveyR

rrVeteran

France - North

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

good news ... bad news ...

good news is the heli's back flying just like before the crash

bad news is the heli's back flying just like before the crash, that is, everything's great exept the tail's wagging despite my micro tail blades and low gain...

I'll be testing with another Gyro soon, hope this burries the problem once and for all.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-04-2010 01:44 PM  7 years agoPost 16
HarveyR

rrVeteran

France - North

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Gyro is ready now (took it off my crashed Hawk). Be putting it on the TREX250SE tomorrow and see how it works. I'm crossing my fingers. If it works, I'll test the GP750 on the Hawk, it'd be fine if the swap turns out well.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-04-2010 07:19 PM  7 years agoPost 17
blade slayer

rrApprentice

Maryland

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

what gyro/servo combo are you going to test it with?

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-04-2010 10:12 PM  7 years agoPost 18
HarveyR

rrVeteran

France - North

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

It's a Robbe 3D Gyro (it's about 3 times the size of the gp750, it's an old Gyro, bought around 2002), with a S9257. It's working fine with a s9252 on the Hawk (don't ask why, on my Hawk I happen to have a s9252 on the tail instead of the s9254). Here's one : http://www.ciao.de/Robbe_3D_Gyro__1192593

I've done some first tests this evening, and the symtoms are exactly the same as the gp750. Incredible! no difference at all. It wags in all cases, it wags slow with low gain (and doesn't hold) and wags fast with high gain (and holds a bit). But no way to get it working (and there's no fancy settings on this one, only gain). The symtoms are really just the same as with the GP750. I didn't expect this. Tomorrow I'll test with the original baldes (mine are trimmed to 26mm now), but I don't expect much from this...

I'm lost now. The only thing I can think of now is the motor/ESC that must be creating some oscillations. But I only have one micro heli, so I can't do any tests about this.

One question : What "Electronic Timing Option" and what "Throttle Response Speed" do you have on the ESC? I asked this and the reply was "stock setting". But it's not clear in the manual what the stock setting is.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-05-2010 12:25 AM  7 years agoPost 19
blunight

rrNovice

Brainerd, MN

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Here's my set up, hope there is something you have not tried:
Gyro: GY520
Servo: DS 290
Ball is 5mm from center of servo wheel
Tailblades: 37mm batwings
Carbon fiber control rod
Eliminate ALL binding in the tail linkages
If your running the stock motor/ESC use 100 flat throttle curve
to get the HS up. if not; here's what I use:
the 3900 kv Scorpion and 25A Castle Creations ESC; it's governed at Idle 1: 3900 rpm Idle 2: 4600 rpm.
The tail is solid now.

I tried the Preload spacer kit from hemjoint: it didnt help - it made it worse!

Good luck and let us know how you come out....it's a fantastic heli once you get the tail figured out.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
06-05-2010 12:24 PM  7 years agoPost 20
dizzymarkus

rrVeteran

Oswego, NY

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Man I cant believe your having this many issues Harvey --- I, as most had a few issues with the tail but swaping to the micro heli grips, slider and case (case not needed) was the fix for me besides moving the ball in super close and a cf pushrod for the tail. Its such a great little flyer once running right. I'll tell you what -- if you get that disgruntled with it where your going to smash it -- I will get er running tip top for you and ship it back :0) but stay with it man -- and I dont believe its the motor esc If you want this route I'll pm you my phonenumber

Have a good weekend man,
Markus

ps --- sorry just saw your in France $$$ but I hope you get it

I reject your reality and substitute my own :0)

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
WATCH
 8 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2      3     NEXT    >> ] 11102 views POST REPLY
Scorpion Power Scorpion Power
Helicopter
e-
Align
T-REX 250 › Back with 250SE tail wag....
 Print TOPIC  Make Suggestion 

 11  Topic Subscribe

Saturday, October 21 - 10:03 pm - Copyright © 2000-2017 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online