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HelicopterTurbine Helicopters › Vario Hughes 500 Rotor Head Speed.
05-31-2010 06:38 AM  7 years agoPost 1
JR Guy

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Waikawa Beach New Zealand

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My Pht3 HP5 Mechanics arrived from Germany after a major make over.
My brief to jetcat was max head speed 950rpm -1000rpm.
Now being called a Pht3-1161 I connected my GSU to the ECU to find that the Min head speed was 1113 @ 94000rpm with a max of 1161 @ 98000rpm.
Can anyone please tell me if 113rpm will cause any problems with my 1880 diameter 5 blade Vario head?

Colin

JR Guy

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05-31-2010 02:37 PM  7 years agoPost 2
Notar

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Taxachussetts

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Vario states 1000rpm for 1880 rotor head. You would be best to email them directly and ask.
Joe

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05-31-2010 02:46 PM  7 years agoPost 3
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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You would need to contact Roman and find out what they have given you as it dosen't line up with any data I have from JetCat.

PHT3-900 rpm no load = 914 @ 94000, max rpm = 953 @ 98000
PHT3-950 rpm no load = 963 @ 92000, max rpm = 1026 @ 98000
PHT3-1000 rpm no load = 1009 @ 92000, max rpm = 1074 @ 98000
PHT3-1300 rpm no load = 1283 @ 94000, max rpm = 1338 @ 98000

Sounds like you have a mismatch there somewhere.

modtron
Oxford UK

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05-31-2010 08:37 PM  7 years agoPost 4
JR Guy

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Waikawa Beach New Zealand

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Thanks for that guys, Very detailed thanks Modron.
I contacted Roman last night by email and he said he had set up the mechanics to accommodate for the Vario 5 Blade head with 1880 Blades.
The head speed limit is 1161rpm, and said it will be OK.
At least that's the message relayed to me by Sandra at Jetcat.
Nick in the US told me some guys are flying that head at 1300rpm, rather them than me .
He did indicate they were not sure about reliability.

Colin

JR Guy

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06-01-2010 09:41 AM  7 years agoPost 5
PETER ROB

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Devon UK

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5 Blade headspeed

Colin, I can not remember which blades I sent with the head
If it is the heavier ones then 1000 is the limit, I would not go any faster than that, the grips are not up to the stress's according to Vario
Peter R

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06-01-2010 12:12 PM  7 years agoPost 6
JR Guy

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Waikawa Beach New Zealand

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Peter not having both sets of blades I wouldn't know what ones you sent to me.
The set I have is painted black and one blade has a yellow tip. Each blade weighs 24g. Is that heavy or light?
The frustrating thing is that all of the Vario model spec's I have indicate 1000rpm.
This is what I expected from Jetcat.
Why in the hell would Jetcat decide I needed 1161 unless they have other specs from elsewhere. Roman said it would be fine. If I phone him or email him again that would be the third time he has said it.
Will Jetcat Replace my damage or written off heli when the blades disintegrate? I doubt it.
Up to now this upgrade to suit the 5 blade head has cost me an additional nz$2500.00 for the upgrade. Im hoping to test fly with this head this weekend. If you are absolutely sure Im not to do so please advise.
So what blade configuration do I use now????
Nick is using the OF head and blades should I sell my head and blades and purchase the OF ones. By the time I finish this heli it would have been cheaper to buy a bloody real one.

Colin

JR Guy

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06-01-2010 12:46 PM  7 years agoPost 7
PETER ROB

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Devon UK

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Colin, 1000 is the correct headspeed, we went down to 950, it was a juggle to get the headspeed spot on for our type of flying, some thing most scale pilots do for their own preferences
The turbine and the gasser 500, fly on different blades, the gasser being heavier
We found that the stock turbine 500 blades flapped, this is the reason we changed to the Gasser blades, probably the reason Nick changed to OF
There is nothing wrong with your head set up
It is the headfspeed that needs to be addressed
We never flew at max turbine RPM we always set a lower turbine speed, the original PHT3 only went to 84000, I beleive, but beware if you lower the turbine speed you will increase the turbine temperature, the reason I think all the changes of gearing were introduced
It seems like it is JetCat's mistake, find out if it is possible for them to send you the correct gearing, and retro fit yourself, Nick did this, maybe he can chip in to explain what he did
Hope this helps
Peter
ps, No they will not pay for any damage

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06-01-2010 08:14 PM  7 years agoPost 8
seattle_helo

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Seattle, WA USA

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Modtron, the PHT3-1161 is a relatively new member of the various PHT3 configurations that JetCat now offers. It's been available since last summer. In addition to the max RPM of 1161 @ 98k on the engine they totally changed the main and pinion gears. The design features much larger tooth surface area and a more rounded gear tooth cut that meshes smoother and quieter. The main gears are slightly thicker and more robust. The torque load limits are higher with these new gears. The tooth count of the pinion and main gears is also different and that's how they achieve 1161 at 98k. I run mine at 96.5k for 1143 on the head.

I do run the OF head and blades and have done so from the beginning even when I was running a normal PHT3-1300. At that time I ran the engine at 90k to get a head speed of 1228. It was higher than OF specified but I didn't want to go any lower on the engine RPM's and others had told me they had done so for years successfully. I choose the OF blades simply because Peter Wales highly recommended them to me while I was building the machine. In hindsight he was right and I would not change a thing. My 500 flies very nicely. It's only fault is my own doing: I made it too heavy with modifications I did during construction. It's over 18KG. I wish it were more like 14 to 15 but such is life.

Anyway, what I don't understand about all of this is when the Hughes was released by Vario the only PHT3 available at that time was the PHT3-1300. Actually, they did have a speed up option for the guys who wanted to do aerobatics at 1400RPM. But there was no PHT3-1000 or otherwise. Many Vario 500's have been built and flown totally stock with a PHT3-1300 and Vario 1880 five blade rotor head. I would say most are this way. I was not aware that Vario specifies a 1000RPM maximum on those blades and head but as a practical matter people are running them at higher speeds. I've spoken with many fellow Vario 500 owners over the years and I dont know one who is using a PHT3-1000 in their bird. I guess only Vario can reconcile this discrepancy unless I'm missing something here.

nick

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06-01-2010 08:35 PM  7 years agoPost 9
JR Guy

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Waikawa Beach New Zealand

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Thanks Peter and Nick, Joe said to ask Vario so I emailed them last night and explained the situation.
I omitted to tell them I'm running the 1880 blades so an email arrived today asking for that information.
As soon as I receive their answer I will post it here on RR.
Peter I don't wish to lower the Turbine rpm I did that last time and your right the turbine gets hot.
Lets see what answer I receive from Vario.
If I need to reduce head speed I hope I can get the parts from Jetcat otherwise my head and blades are up for sale.
By the way Nick what rotor Diameter are you running?

JR Guy

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06-01-2010 08:38 PM  7 years agoPost 10
PETER ROB

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Devon UK

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PHT3-Headspeed

Nick, Peter Wales and myself had the first 3 PHT3's in the UK
I have 2 of the original 3 sets of gearing, albeit, 6mm pullies,
I know that when I first fitted a 5 blade head I burnt the clutch out, thats when the gear changing ratios came to light
Maybe Peter W can shed some more light on the subject, all my PHT3's are old, except the PHT3-3 that was changed last year, and re-geared this year
Peter R

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06-01-2010 08:55 PM  7 years agoPost 11
seattle_helo

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Seattle, WA USA

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Colin, I've got a 1.8m rotor on mine. They are 800mm blades and the head span is 225mm.

Peter, weren't those early PHT3's you and Peter W had all 1280RPM on the head?

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06-01-2010 09:12 PM  7 years agoPost 12
PETER ROB

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Devon UK

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Nick/Colin,Just been and checked one of those early PHT3's
The lowest headspeed I can get is 1188, and the highest 1278, this one has been back for a service by the previous owner, been waiting for a repair for a long while
Looks like I may have had a senior moment, with so many heli's going through my hands, I have got myself confused
Colin check what the Gasser 5 blade headspeed is and as those are gasser blades they will be ok at that speed, it is only the motor that is changed
Peter R,

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06-02-2010 02:53 AM  7 years agoPost 13
Peter Wales

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Orlando Fl

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Both the PHT3 turbines I had ran at a nominal 1250rpm on a 4 blade OF head with 800 mm blades. I sold one and the other is still flying 6 years later, both with the 6mm belts as Peter R said.

I havent touched the ECU since I built it and have no idea what the actual rpm is or whether it can be changed. The ECU is probably V1a

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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06-02-2010 12:44 PM  7 years agoPost 14
JR Guy

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Waikawa Beach New Zealand

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I contacted Vario Germany just now, however their technicians are away until Monday. I think I will just Hover and see if it looks ok.
As long as there is no undue fibrations I might be alright.When I think of the last time I tried to hover, it was reaching a headspeed of about 1200rpm before the upgrade and the blades looked fine it was just the Turbine bogging down.
Well I'll see how it goes this weekend.

Colin

JR Guy

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06-04-2010 01:12 PM  7 years agoPost 15
JR Guy

rrApprentice

Waikawa Beach New Zealand

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PROBLEMS

I now have a problem with the Glow plug.
Plugged in the GSU and have 6.6v showing in the test functions menu under "Burner".
My ECU is a V5
Pressed "Change Value/Item" an arrow comes up on the screen and when I touch the + - Arrows noting is happening other than blowing another plug.

In the "Limits Menu"how do I change from "Kero start" to "Propane start"? It says it can't be changed.

Colin

JR Guy

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06-04-2010 01:50 PM  7 years agoPost 16
PETER ROB

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Devon UK

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Kero/Propade change

Colin,Sent a copy of the Kero manual by e-mail
Good luck
Peter R

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06-04-2010 04:20 PM  7 years agoPost 17
MattJen

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UK

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Just in case Peters email doesnt get through with the attachment,
here is how,i swapped back and forth a few times.
Taken from the Manual
For operation of the Kerosene startup system an ECU software version 5.00Q or higher is needed. ECU´s from V4.00 or higher can be software updated to operate with the kerosene ignition system. Therefore the ECU needs to be sent in to a JetCat service point.

Set ECU to Propane start mode
• Switch off RC-receiver
• Connect the GSU to ECU
• Simultaneously press and hold the buttons “Ignition” and “-“
• Switch on the RC receiver (keep the buttons pressed)
• After a few seconds the display of the GSU shows:
PROPANE
Startup activated!
• Release all buttons, the ECU is now configured for Propane start-up

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06-07-2010 02:04 AM  7 years agoPost 18
JR Guy

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Waikawa Beach New Zealand

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Thanks Guys all sorted I'm up and flying. When the weather improves I'll post some pic's.
Iv'e copied Nick's colour scheme because I've admired his 500 so much, mine is no where near as good, but thats a credit to Nick.

Colin

JR Guy

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06-07-2010 03:55 AM  7 years agoPost 19
JR Guy

rrApprentice

Waikawa Beach New Zealand

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Just a couple of pic's

JR Guy

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06-07-2010 08:24 AM  7 years agoPost 20
PETER ROB

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Devon UK

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PROBLEMS

Colin, Have you got it flying yet?
Peter R

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HelicopterTurbine Helicopters › Vario Hughes 500 Rotor Head Speed.
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