RunRyder RC
 7  Topic Subscribe
WATCH
 2 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2     NEXT    >> ] 3126 views POST REPLY
HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsOther › Crash with vbar / VStabi
10-19-2009 11:39 PM  8 years agoPost 1
WolfgangrrNovice - Germany - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Hi,

first please excuse my bad english.

The background of my post is a crash with a big helicopter (Vario CH53, SPH-5) and with VStabi.

The helicopter flight very slow in a distance of ca. 20 meters from one to the other side. At one moment, the heli tilt over roll to the left side! -> Crash

After the crash i am checking the heli on the ground without reconnecd the rx power and the VStabi works normaly on the tail and swash plate.

The log of the rx (Spectrum FlightLog) are ok, the batterie switch for rx are ok (emcotec hf twin mini) alway from rc-control at the heli are ok.

After this crash, at the same day with the same tx controler (MC24 with Spectrum) the next flight with a Henseleit TDR is always fine, no problems.

Now i am very confused to flying my other scale heli (Robbe BK117, PHT-3 and VStabi) because the Mikado support find no failure on the crashed vbar!

I am now accumulate any informations from other pilot they have similar problems. Importend is, my infos there are accumulate to today (five cases are known) it is only the new hardware version with the 4 software. Now to this day there are no problems with the old aluminium sensor type and 4 software.

I am very pleased to hear from anyone objective cases.

Thanks a lot...

Greetings

Wolfgang

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
10-20-2009 07:03 AM  8 years agoPost 2
Stet

rrElite Veteran

Key Largo FL

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Any chance a link broke?

keepin' it real

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-20-2009 07:08 AM  8 years agoPost 3
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

did you hot-glue or by other means secure the sensor cable?
That's one big difference between the Alu vs Black sensor, the old alu had more pins in the connectors and was quite secure by itself.

Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-20-2009 08:36 AM  8 years agoPost 4
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

While I respect the loss and your concern, there are questions here.

As a question have you independently tested your cyclic servos since this crash to determine there is no issue with individual servos?

I say this as recently I seen a friends do this very thing, we first thought same as you did. However in close inspection on the bench after his crash we noticed one of his servos which was a BLS 451 servo was intermittently twitching to side and then would lock up. It took us about 5 different times to notice this on bench and this definetely was the cause of his crash and was not the vstabi. We could not believe it as it was a near new servo as well.

Some other things that can create such events are intermittent power supply loss to the unit, via however you may supply your system, such as BEC failure from your esc or your rx pack, rx bus failure etc and can cause a reset of your system to re initiate depending on your reconnect process of your radio system itself. This does not sound like a V-Stabi issue to me honestly as I have seen many outside failures myself outside of V-Stabi to create these things. I have both the alu and black sensors and with a consistent proven power supply and rest of electronics working in their 100 fashion I have not had a V-Stabi unit fail, old or new style. The testing on their end is very thorough and if they said the unit is not faulty I am simply betting it is in fact not faulty and it has to be something outside of the system.

Shawn

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-20-2009 09:17 AM  8 years agoPost 5
Wolfgang

rrNovice

Germany

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

After the crash the sensorcabel was always connected on the main box. The cable is with hot glue fixed! Any cabels on receiver/vbar/gyro/... on my helis are fixed!

The Config:

4x BLS451 swash plate
1x BLS451 tail
Emcotec HF Twin Mini (Cell + RX Switch)
2x 5 Cell NiCd.
Spektrum AR9000 with tow Satellit
DS19 as RX
Vario SPH-5 turbine mechanic

The test after the crash (without reconnecd power) on the ground are sucsessfuly. All servos works fine, no problem.

This is a turbine heli, no real vibrations like a nitro heli.

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
10-20-2009 09:29 AM  8 years agoPost 6
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Yes understand it is Turbine, I do not fly nitro either.

€Does your AR9000 have the newest Quick Connect firmware in it? When approaching the heli, were the main rx and reciever lights solid or were any of them flashing as you approached the heli?

What is this DS19 item you have listed? Sorry just not familiar with what this might be?

Also to original description, of what you were doing while flying, you say side to side, then heli roll to one side. How fast was this and was there a correction visible or was heli low at time and this was not viewed?

Again, I only ever saw this happen with the conditions I have listed and I seen outside failures to aileron or elevator axis due to those conditions, never found one event where it was the v-stabi thinking on its own sort of speak as it well..doesen't really do such things.

I've seen servo failures, power failures, satic surges all produce some bizzare things to with vstabi and gyros of others in general.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-20-2009 01:34 PM  8 years agoPost 7
Wolfgang

rrNovice

Germany

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

€Does your AR9000 have the newest Quick Connect firmware in it? When approaching the heli, were the main rx and reciever lights solid or were any of them flashing as you approached the heli?
The lights are not flashing!
What is this DS19 item you have listed? Sorry just not familiar with what this might be?
Here is mor informations about my cell/rx switch:

http://shop.rc-electronic.com/e-ven...t=6&c=705&p=705

The DS19 rx is a 35 MHz receiver from JR. It is the backup rx, for the case that AR9000 Spectrum rx are failed or on a specified channel from the AR9000 was a predefined failsafe signal. Is this signal comming, the Emcotec rx switchs to the backup system (DS19, 35MHz) In the rx switch from Emcotec is a logger how displayed the switching between the rx´s. This system are never switch. Only when i manually shut off the Spectrum tx module in my MC24, there is a switch in the logger visiable.

I send on both frequnency/systems, 2,4GHz and 35MHz (in USA like 70MHz), with tow tx modules (Spectrum 2,4GHZ and JR 35MHz)in the MC24 transceiver at the same time.
Also to original description, of what you were doing while flying, you say side to side, then heli roll to one side. How fast was this and was there a correction visible or was heli low at time and this was not viewed?
In the last seconds of the flight, the heli was in a distance of 20 meter an in height of 5 meters. Not fast, like 10-15 km/h, or 5-10 miles per hour. Flight was from left to right. At this point the heli was closer to me at the rest of my flying (like up to 200-250 meters distance) and also in this distance there are no problems with the rx system. Belive me!
Again, I only ever saw this happen with the conditions I have listed and I seen outside failures to aileron or elevator axis due to those conditions, never found one event where it was the v-stabi thinking on its own sort of speak as it well..doesen't really do such things.
How many vbar are in Canada? Overall there are a lot of the vbar´s worldwide like over 2000 pieces. A very lot of this here in Germany. I have accumulate informations of five cases here in Germany within the exact same problem. This is provable. I cannot belive this problem was only in Germany exist.

Greetings

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
10-20-2009 05:58 PM  8 years agoPost 8
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I talk with alot of VBar people, I mean alot (I have 8 vbar's myself), never ever heard of a single occurance like you describe, absolute zero occurances.

However, when a servo is failing, it act just like you describe, sudden movement (it loosing the ability to know where center is), so make sure you test the servos for extensive period & send it in for extensive testing, since it might not show until you try it in real life again.
My last 9256 servo that failed acted like that, in the middle of the flight it suddenly moved the tail 90 degrees, smack, just like that.

Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-20-2009 07:41 PM  8 years agoPost 9
Wolfgang

rrNovice

Germany

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

It is nice to hear, your have 8 Vbar.

But the BLS451 is a digital servo it works normal or not.
No differents between that.

Mostly before a servo died, that takes some noice.

Believe me, i tests the Servo very hard about speed and power.
All four BLS451 works normaly.

I think it is maybe the high impuls rate vom the vbar 4 times thats issues a little overload for the vbar cpu.

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
10-20-2009 07:49 PM  8 years agoPost 10
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I myself have pushed through 8717s at over 10 amp loads through the moduel at 8.4 volts and never seen a hicup, I don't think overloading of any sort could be issue as the powerbus or cpu to be honest.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-20-2009 07:51 PM  8 years agoPost 11
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

But the BLS451 is a digital servo it works normal or not.
No differents between that.

Mostly before a servo died, that takes some noice.
My 9256 which I still have by the way, does no extra noise, it works on the bench perfectly, but every 30 flightminutes or so on a avg, it just moves by itself.

So, Digital or not, they can fail in ways you cannot predict, just saying dont trust them until checked.

As for a Vbar cpu getting "overloaded" I dont beleive it at all, since CPU wise the 4.0 is not using anything near the capacity of the VBar with Black sensor (CPU speed is actually at least twice compared to Alu sensor)

If you had a sensor failure, those are common gyro sensors, it would have shown on the test afterwards.

Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-20-2009 08:07 PM  8 years agoPost 12
Justin Stuart (RIP)

rrMaster

Plano, Texas

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Assuming you have the V-bar sensor set up correctly (which it sounds like you do), then the other issues caused by the V-bar are that the helicopter either oscillates or wobbles back and forth. You were able to hover, so it sounds like the V-bar was alright.

The situation you are describing indicates to me:

#1. Broken link
#2. Broken servo
#3. Wire came unplugged.

I use dental floss to individually secure every plug into the V-bar. Others use hot glue, but I prefer the dental floss.

Avant RC
Scorpion Power Systems
Thunder Power RC
Kontronik Drives

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-20-2009 08:18 PM  8 years agoPost 13
SpeedVision

rrApprentice

Grand Rapids, MI USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Wolfgang, sorry to hear about your unfortunate crash...

At IRCHA, I had what appeared to be a radio hit on my Spektrum DX7 2.4 system (very unlikely). Needless to say, I was immediately at the Spektrum booth. They looked at me as if I was crazy, so I moved my frustration to Mikado since I had one of the first Mini-V's. Rainer was very helpful and data logged several fligts to see if the Vbar was working properly. Everything checked out.

After further discussions with the team, the only logical explanation was ESD due to the belt and the mounting location of the Mini-V...

After grounding the boom, the problem has not returned.

No, I'm not suggesting this happened to you...but I am saying that we'll only be able to make assumptions about your problem since there is no hard data to evaluate.

Given the expense of the heli's you fly, it might be warranted to replace the entire control system...which might be far less costly than another another crash.

Flybarless - The future was yesterday...you in?

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-20-2009 09:50 PM  8 years agoPost 14
Wolfgang

rrNovice

Germany

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Ok,

once more, the servos works normaly, all 4 servos. Here is no issue,
The sensor and cabel are still fixed, also after the crash!!

Ok ESD was also in Germany a issue with helis who has a belt.

@MrMel: You have a very good know how about Mikado vbar (8 pices, ok!)

I am so amazing there was in the little small country Germany meantime 6 cases of the same problem like me.

In the rest of the world exactly 0. I think
that´s a bit fishy!

Or not all vbar pilots have read this post.

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
10-21-2009 07:51 AM  8 years agoPost 15
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Nothing fishy here wolfgang, everyone here is trying to help you to find a problem that may have caused such event. As stated without video or seeing your heli and knowing all of what you have, all of what you have tried and done, equipment time, tests etc, it is VERY hard and we are all simply trying to help you by understanding all you can tell us here. So please understand this sir. I to have 6 Vstabis, and only one instance I crashed not due to my own thumbs with one and it was the cable had come loose from the module so addmitently my own mistake. I had some small instances of wierd glitches or appeared to even using Spektrum 2.4, that ended up needing to ground the boom to the motor plate and also tr case to the boom on my Logo 600, after doing this there were no repeats or suprises since then.

I as well have not seen across any board or message an event listed as yours states. And I frequent all the boards as well, at least all of the English ones, sorry I do not speak German, only small amounts.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-21-2009 10:49 AM  8 years agoPost 16
WIRLYBIRD

rrVeteran

CAPE TOWN / SOUTH AFRICA.

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Is outside noise like metal to metal , or even static electricity caused within the machinery , likely to cause this problem?
Dave.

WHAT GOES UP MUST SURELY COME DOWN.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-21-2009 11:34 AM  8 years agoPost 17
clayboy

rrApprentice

phuket thailand

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

i have experienced problems like u described and all of them turned out to be mecanical or esd problem.very easy to blame 1 system. I understand u only had 1 crash like this and everyting indicates to b ok that means in my point of wiew that it could if electronical problem be anything on the heli or radio. it looks to me that u have decided that it is a v bar problem just bequase every thing else works. but so seams the v bar doing as well. maybe better to look in to everything or shange everything if it is a very expensive heli if u don't trust the electronics

i started with nothing and still got most of it left

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-21-2009 07:04 PM  8 years agoPost 18
Wolfgang

rrNovice

Germany

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Hi,

its very easy to say the problem is always in the mechanik/servos/rx/power... but not vbar!

It always the wrong way, but for all other components i have the chance to view a log (ok without the servos)and there was always ok.
With the servos i have this day a special servos test to complete sucssesfuly on the bench! At tomorrow the BLS451 goes to the germany futaba servos! (No import from outside germany)

But by the Mikado vbar there are no chance to reproduce after a flight whats going on. I think this is in mind from Mikado!

Ist normaly for me, to check after a flight many parameter are ok, like turbine engines, rx quality, batterie quality, how many amperes are using, what is the peak about power, have the rx switch a failover to the backup rx, ... and so on.

I look very of the security and this is a must for me, while i fly on many flightfestivals!

A ESD impact für turbine helis without a beltdrive is normaly not a option. Only the kerison fuel tube a critical line, when the kerosin value not grounded to the main body of the mechanik. About this reason there was a special fluid from JetCat to inhibit this.

Greetings

Wolfgang

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
10-21-2009 08:06 PM  8 years agoPost 19
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta, Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

well not sure what else can be said or discovered as you seem to have had your mind made up as to what it was from the beggining? ,,, yet no one has had it happen with the unit itself producing what you describe. It's always hard for people to admidt or acknowledge that it may have been their fault or that something outside of a system may have failed, but we all make mistakes and things happen. Without more information, video, background it seems impossible to make a determination for you on your event. While understanding your position sir, it still seems something outside of the V-stabi has introduced problem based on all of what you have presented to everyone here. I suppose once you send out your other goods and review your specific heli layout and other electronics something may come to light, sometimes it works this way where we do not see something right away in observation.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
10-21-2009 08:56 PM  8 years agoPost 20
Big Fil

rrKey Veteran

Santa Rosa, CA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

One of the guys at LA3D had a similar failure where about a minute into his flight it slowly rolled left aileron and he had no control. It was a brand new Logo 600 and he had about 7 flights on it through the day with no issues. I could tell he didn't have it and he even said so half way through. No inputs he gave had any affect at all. He's a very good 3D pilot so if he still had control of two other servos we would have seen him trying to correct.

Upon walking up to his heli the first I looked at was the sensor cable, which was plugged in, and a solid light on his Spektrum rx. We were not able to definitively find a root cause to the lockup at the time.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
WATCH
 2 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2     NEXT    >> ] 3126 views POST REPLY
HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsOther › Crash with vbar / VStabi
 Print TOPIC  Make Suggestion 

 7  Topic Subscribe

Tuesday, January 23 - 7:53 am - Copyright © 2000-2017 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online