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HelicopterMain Discussion › FBLess...does it level the field between helicopter manufacturers?
10-21-2009 04:24 PM  8 years agoPost 41
Band1086

rrElite Veteran

Kennewick, Wa. USA

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Jag72 well said. But I agree with my old buddy, heading hold gyros
are cheating. If your a good enough pilot you should be able to fly through an unstable tail trying to yaw off. In fact it's cheating using a gyro at all or for that matter machanical stablization (i.e. flybars)...why would you want to CHEAT and use any kind of
stablization on an INHERENTLY UNSTABLE MACHINE. We all should be good enough pilots to control our machines without all that CHEATING!!! HeHeHe

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10-21-2009 07:35 PM  8 years agoPost 42
pseudonym

rrApprentice

Edmonton, Alberta

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^^^ +1000000!

Finally! Some common sense! =)

unspelling the world one misprint at a time.

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10-21-2009 07:50 PM  8 years agoPost 43
VooDooX

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San Francisco Bay Area CA, US (San Mateo)

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well technically then a tail rotor would be cheating also? EVERYONE NEEDS TO LEARN TO PIRO FLY A BLADE DISK

now for sale

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Velocity 50 "99.9999999999999% of an atom is empty space." also 01001000 01001001

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10-21-2009 08:15 PM  8 years agoPost 44
Band1086

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Kennewick, Wa. USA

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HAHAHA That's the funniest post I've seen yet!!!

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10-21-2009 08:52 PM  8 years agoPost 45
BobOD

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New York- USA

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Age Old Theme
You know, this is an age old theme that plays out constantly as technology and performance progresses. Many often wonder why the need for such fancy, newfangled things are necessary while others push ahead with the new developments. The next thing you know people are doing things they would not have dreamt possible a decade ago. Sound familiar?
I do not believe gyros are cheating at all. Anything that allows the machine to be controlled in a more controllable way will simply let us set our goals further ahead.

I do not feel that FBL gyros level the playing field though. I believe that FBL is still in its infancy and that mechanics are actually important...more important actually. Precision, dampening design and delta design will become more and more important as we learn to fully utilize this technology. Most mechanics are simply coppied versions of conversions done by ametures with little research put into it. Most I see are Model A Fords of the FBL world. There's much more to come.
I'm not knocking ametures BTW. They usually start the whole process so deserve a lot of credit.

Team POP Secret

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10-22-2009 10:23 AM  8 years agoPost 46
Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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Once they come out with a reasonably priced combo kit like Align do that include a flybar stabalisation system that comes ready setup for 3D flying or maybe a switch that says BEGINNER, INTERMEDIAT AND ADVANCED I maybe interested to try one. I wont spend hundreds of pounds to fiddle about all day to try and get it to fly like a flybared heli! However, if thats how you get your enjoyment then that is 100% fine. I however get my enjoyment from setting a flybared heli up well and marveling at how well [B][size=large] have made it fly. I do appreciate the technology though.

60% of the time, it works every time!

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10-22-2009 10:49 AM  8 years agoPost 47
GimbalFan (RIP)

rrProfessor

Big Coppitt Key, FL

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We all should be good enough pilots to control our machines without all that CHEATING!!!
A big part of the beauty of both RC and full-scale helicopters for me is their inherent INstability. At this point I have no interest whatsoever in converting any of my birds to FBL -- I like makin' sloppy look good.

op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t

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10-22-2009 12:33 PM  8 years agoPost 48
fraser1818

rrNovice

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OK, I have now tried 5 different flybarles systems. All of them have their good points. Most take a long time to learn. Probably have 200 hours in this. Heres what I ended up with on my Trex 500. FS600 flybarless controller, with an RJX head. It does not use a PC to program. It comes with a programmer that fits in your pocket. I was able to learn it and install in 3 hours. It has every paramater I could want. No reinitialization after changes. All adjustments were named something I understood. It is a 3 axis unit. The tail part off it works as good as my Spartan. Really. The cyclic works just as good. I am able to make it fly exactly like my flybar, or a blasing fast 3D monster that is to much for me. I never dreamed a helicopter could be this precise and fun. Been at this for 20 years. Oh it was half of the cost of other 3 axis controllers, I almost didn't buy it because of the price. How come I have never even heard of this unit? It is so damn stable. I will NEVER go bac k to a flybar. Flight times get me tired. Also I bought it from a dealer I never head of. When I called them with a setup question they had the answer and knew the sytem inside out. Only problem now is I need three more. I found it at heliflightcenter.com

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10-22-2009 01:48 PM  8 years agoPost 49
jaws

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New Carlisle, Ohio

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I guess I need more time
I recently got my first FBL system. It is a great system no doubt but I am still not completely sold on it. Perhaps it is the maturity level of the technology or perhaps it is my maturity level of skill. I only have about 4-5 hours on it so far. There are some things about it I really like (especially in the fast flight and maneuvers). However, I don't like some of the behavior in slower, more precise type flight. I like to do both flight styles and need to figure out how to get it setup for both.

Based upon Fraser1818 comments sounds like I just need more time on it. I do not completely understand what all the settings do and their impact on the flight characteristics yet. Guess it takes time.

Just my measly 2 cents.

-jeff

Best Regards,
Jeff

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10-22-2009 04:01 PM  8 years agoPost 50
BobOD

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New York- USA

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Well, I am a mechanical guy...not much into electronics. And, I have always marveled over the complexities of the flybar system and how well it works. So, I hate to see it go too.
Having said that though, I cannot ignore history.

I still have the slide rule that I used as a child. Many were adamant at the time that its replacement with calculators was a mistake. I no longer know how to even use it and do not feel that this is any loss of intelect.

I still marvel over mechanical computers. I can remember when Numeric Controlled milling machines were controlled by compressed air logic. Just flat out amazing what can be done mechanically. Today, I run all modern electronic CNC equipment to make my helicopter products.

The carburator is a very simple mechanical device that works by well known, fixed physical properties. It will prove very difficult to replace this with computer controlled injection systems. The pioneers won here too.

Oh, and by the way, FBL gyros do not necessarilly eliminate the neutral stability that is inherent in a helicopter. It should take away the instability though...same function as the mechanical flybar. Just without the mechanical limitations of speed and accuracy.

Team POP Secret

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10-22-2009 04:31 PM  8 years agoPost 51
Pellicle

rrNovice

New York

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Flybarless
From what I can see flybarless systems are beginning to mature. Some of the early systems work great but of course as with any new product types the pricing was high. Adoption was low. Some of the early systems seemed a bit quirky. Now the pricing is coming down and there are units from the 200 range that are good entry units, to some at the 300 dollar range that are reportedly better than any of the previous generations and have great tail performance equal to some of the best gyros. The methodologies and user interfaces are changing to make the systems easier to understand, as noted by someone above, as well as more flexible. From fooling around with a couple of the newer units I can make the flight characteristics of my heli like a flybar systems or change it to behave even better (IMHO - at least for me). We all get used to what we fly and our brains adjust to compensate for the characteristics. Flybarless systems make it easier to change those characteristics. I started by making the units behave more like I was used to - it just felt better. Then as I experimented and tweaked I began to move from those characteristics to faster response speeds than I could get before while keeping the same stability. You can decouple stability and input response characteristics with a good flybarless system and modify each somewhat independently. You can fly stably with lighter blades allowing even faster responses. This allows even more pop but can take learning and more skill to use. It is not necessarily easier to use but can be programmed so a beginner can learn easier.

To fly great 3D or scale or whatever is not a systems issue. It still takes skill. These new systems in my opinion open up new performance capabilities you need to learn to control and use. On the other side they can be used to make learning easier and cheaper opening the sport up to more people I think this is a good thing. We can all fly what we like. I have a antique car and a couple of sports cars. One is an old Lotus Elite with points and everything totally manual the other a modern sports car with ABS, ESP, Traction control etc I like the experience of both. Same for flybarless with stabilization and flybar. That said, I think as with cars and commercial planes the trend will be to electronic systems which can enhance the performance and help us fly better, faster, wilder and easier and it will come at increasingly lower prices. Someone mentioned some of the fighter jets that use electronic stabilization systems. Some of these planes could not be flown without the electronics. But with them they can do more that previously inherently stable planes could do. But they take a new skill set to use the increased performance. Just a different way to skin the cat.

My 2 well maybe 15 cent diatribe!

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10-22-2009 05:00 PM  8 years agoPost 52
BobOD

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New York- USA

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Worth at least 15c !

Team POP Secret

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10-22-2009 08:08 PM  8 years agoPost 53
KC

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WA

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Very good point Pellicle. It is a matter of skill more than it is equipment.

The question 99% of these topics fail to ask is "how do I get the skill?" Instead they always ask, "which is better?"....the answer is "both and neither one."

About five years ago, "overdriving" cyclics and collective became popular......there are lots of pilots now who do not know what to do with less than +/-14 degrees pitch and +/-8 degrees cyclic....everything needs to be fast, aggressive, and noisy before they see the point.

These helis when set up to the limit, have new limits that old helicopters didn't, mostly in the dampening and rpm range, which is critical to flybars. The tight dampening kills their presentation in autos and hovering...as is noticable in the standards of autos against the 3d moves that are now benchmarks. If you have been around, you have seen much more impressive autos in years past.

Anyways, it's physically impossible to dampen a flybarred machine at those rpms AND at lower rpms without getting that bounce in tic tocs, wobble in autos, or nasty load sound that is typical of modern 3d helis when underdampened and overservoed....like all flybars, it is a compromise.

Complex solution...flybarless with electronic stabilization/dampening compensation...keep the lower rpm and still have cyclic agility...or turn it up and do what you see now.

First generation flybarless didnt auto any better because it wanted tight dampening to beat the lag, or delay...newer ones allow for dampening solutions that are better for autos because they do not have a noticable delay (except the cheap crappy systems).

Reality: machine costs more to move around a little faster and do things at angles the older machines couldn't...after awhile you might lose interest in these superlatives.

Real solution: fly more.

...so if you're sitting there longing for a piece of equipment you don't have or are hesitant to buy, you already have your answer on whether you 'need' it.

If you are concerned you made the wrong purchase, whats the 'right purchase'?

If you buy the best you can afford, technologically advanced or not, you will save money which can be put towards flying more....the essentials: power(fuel) and parts, the stuff you do 'need'

Fwiw, I don't have a piece of equipment with less than 500 flights on it.....I buy the best electronics first, those are the most expensive components that will last the longest of anything on a chopper. I don't have time to test multiple FBLs for myself and would assume vbar4.0 is the best at the moment, but I have time to wait on the verdict and let you guys do it for me

In a couple of years, we probably all will be flying FBLs outside of F3C, but I will still keep a few flybars and other old technologies atleast to show the future generations of lazies who are hardwired to technology worse than we are that people can do things without a computer for everything!

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10-22-2009 08:37 PM  8 years agoPost 54
pseudonym

rrApprentice

Edmonton, Alberta

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There once were men named bell, hiller,
who's new flying machine was a killer.
They went in behind
a shead and desiged
a flybar so the heli was stiller!

Sorry.. couldn't resist =).

Anyhow, I am still pretty new (although well researched) to the hobby. In the fleet I have my RJX X50 FBL and my flybarred TREX 250. The RJX was my first Heli and I honestly didn't even consider flying with a flybar.

The bell-hiller mixer is a facinating device, but in the end adds HUGE ammounts of complication to a heli. I deal with large networks and security, and one of the main considerations that I have to deal with is complexity. Complexity in systems is not a good thing. Every time you add another layer, you are also adding another point of failure. With networks this is a logical thing, but it works with mechanics as well. When you add in a whole bunch more mechanical parts, the reliablity of your machine comes down to the weakest of those parts. In the end it is easier to insure the strength of 5 parts than it is for 10. Electronics are far more robust and reliable than mechanical systems now, and much easier to diagnose a failure (it works or it doesn't basicly). The lack of complex mechanical mixing makes setup much easier as well. It isn't actually that much more expensive either. With things like the Flymentor becomming avalible, the price has come down to just slightly over the cost of a good single axis gyro and with more and more kits comming FBL, that takes away the cost of the "upgradded" head.

So, with-out the huge cost hit and the reduction in complexity and the resulting increase in reliability, I see flybarrless as being a no brainer. Besides, I think never having to remove a bent flybar from a head is a gift to all newbies!

my 2 cents

~m

unspelling the world one misprint at a time.

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10-22-2009 09:19 PM  8 years agoPost 55
VooDooX

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San Francisco Bay Area CA, US (San Mateo)

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lol bell and hiller are 2 different people so a man nammed bell hiller is wrong.. lolas for bent flybar snip one side off at the base and pull thru the other side easy peasy lemon squeezy!

Velocity 50 "99.9999999999999% of an atom is empty space." also 01001000 01001001

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10-22-2009 09:20 PM  8 years agoPost 56
pseudonym

rrApprentice

Edmonton, Alberta

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yes.. well I didn't think that "There once were two guys named Bell and Hiller" fitted the lymric style =P.

unspelling the world one misprint at a time.

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10-22-2009 09:22 PM  8 years agoPost 57
VooDooX

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San Francisco Bay Area CA, US (San Mateo)

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what about

there once were men named bell-hiller
they went in behind also not he went in behind :P

Velocity 50 "99.9999999999999% of an atom is empty space." also 01001000 01001001

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10-22-2009 09:22 PM  8 years agoPost 58
BobOD

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New York- USA

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Wow, this is quite a hot topic.

And just to add to pseudos post, if you were to try to add the mechanical complexity so a flybar could do what the electronic flybar already can do, it would become enormously complex. One simple example would be to allow variable gains on the fly. Anything is possible but I would hate to be the designer assigned to tackle that one. And that just scratches the surface.

And, don't hope for prices to come down too fast. The initial high prices pay for the pioneering development. Cheap, copycat competition arriving too early will only stagnate the development. I know most don't care about that but they should. That's another subject though.

Team POP Secret

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10-22-2009 09:24 PM  8 years agoPost 59
pseudonym

rrApprentice

Edmonton, Alberta

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there once were men named bell-hiller
they went in behind also not he went in behind :P
That works.. Edited!

unspelling the world one misprint at a time.

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10-22-2009 10:35 PM  8 years agoPost 60
KC

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WA

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ever see a 4lb battery shear through a FBL unit or gyro before?...nothing is cheaper to crash in the 90 department.

neither FBL or a flybar is better... JUST DIFFERENT.

windy flying too hard with a flybar?....fly simpler moves until you are comfortable...don't fly in bad light.

travelling flips are nasty...slow them down until you see why

falls out of the air?....they all do that.

piro moves are rough?........practice

fwiw 'Realflight' is anything but...if you want to get good with your helicopter, you need to spend some time flying it.

the argument about whats cheaper to crash is non-existent.....you'll just push harder if its cheaper.

the one thing that oddly is axiomatically true: more expensive 'high end' helicopters are cheaper to operate: they simply work more often if they're built right.

whether you buy a vbar logo or a flybar Aurora....doesnt really matter, both very good helis....I'd take the flybar Logo and the difference in batteries and chargers because I can throw it in the trunk of my car and fly more often.

Would you make your decision that way?....if you can find time to fly, it sure beats having something 'better' that you cannot get out and fly enough.

I see it all the time, nice guys with nice machines they never fly but they love their trex450

If you have a good machine (meaning that you are happy with it), do not change a ****ing thing about it, just keep feeding it what it wants: your money.

So why keep saying this stuff OVER AND OVER? Maybe one of you reading this will see there is no secret to flying how you desire...theres little the latest gear will do for you either.

the only thing that really really works is called flying more often, try it

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HelicopterMain Discussion › FBLess...does it level the field between helicopter manufacturers?
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