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HelicopterOff Topics News & Politics › Does God Exist?
10-23-2009 03:04 AM  8 years agoPost 621
baby uh1

rrVeteran

St. James, Mo.

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Fables and myths arise from fear and guesswork -- hardly a logical way to live one's life -- and they're the ongoing source for most of what ails folks.
Sounds like Obama's economic policy!

Sorry all, I just couldn't resist!

Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about!

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10-23-2009 03:09 AM  8 years agoPost 622
Blade_Master1

rrElite Veteran

Canada

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Gees gimbal is very very sensative I feel sorry for him
He likes to dish it out but now he's gone.

I know he'll be back with some smarta$$ comment

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10-23-2009 03:11 AM  8 years agoPost 623
GimbalFan (RIP)

rrProfessor

Big Coppitt Key, FL

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As proven numerous times before, some are more capable (and worthy) of intelligent interaction than others. It's a fact of life both in person and online.

Mike will reply whenever he's ready.

op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t

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10-23-2009 03:13 AM  8 years agoPost 624
Blade_Master1

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Canada

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As proven numerous times above, some are more worthy (and capable) of intelligent interaction than others. It's a fact of life both in person and online.
Uhh so why are you here ?

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10-23-2009 03:17 AM  8 years agoPost 625
Dennis (RIP)

rrApprentice

Oregon

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As proven numerous times above, some are more worthy (and capable) of intelligent interaction than others. It's a fact of life both in person and online.
So ah.

Why are you here?

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10-23-2009 03:25 AM  8 years agoPost 626
Blade_Master1

rrElite Veteran

Canada

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I don't understand Gimbal either

He wants to talk to people but only to the people he considers educated
unfortunately we are not smart enough for him.
but he still talks to us

Gimbal you're going to have to decide whether or not to participate in the discussion with out calling people stupid.

We may not be as smart as you but we still have feelings

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10-23-2009 04:15 AM  8 years agoPost 627
JimmyC

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Gaithersburg, Maryland USA

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As written in the bible.

Jesus says,
“I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.
If this is untrue what was the very first thing to exist?

Did something just go poof and appeared? I will keep my faith in Jesus Christ . If I'm wrong I have nothing to lose. If non believers are wrong?

JimmyC

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10-23-2009 04:18 AM  8 years agoPost 628
philip 01

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ft worth

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may not be as smart as you
calling people out and non stop arguing on the internet day in and day out with nothing better to do is not smart and speaks volumes.

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10-23-2009 04:19 AM  8 years agoPost 629
RC/helicopman

rrNovice

USA

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I have often said the same thing. If I am wrong then I have NOTHING to lose, but if others are wrong they have EVERYTHING to lose.

I kind of like those odds.

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10-23-2009 04:21 AM  8 years agoPost 630
philip 01

rrElite Veteran

ft worth

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have often said the same thing. If I am wrong then I have NOTHING to lose, but if others are wrong they have EVERYTHING to lose.

I kind of like those odds.
that's a good one. so true.

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10-23-2009 04:24 AM  8 years agoPost 631
Blade_Master1

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Canada

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LOL thats what I said about my marriage

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10-23-2009 04:41 AM  8 years agoPost 632
cfranks

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Adelaide South Australia

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About time we mentioned "The Dragon In My Garage"
by Carl Sagan again. It probably has similarities to some of the entries herein.

http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

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10-23-2009 04:45 AM  8 years agoPost 633
GimbalFan (RIP)

rrProfessor

Big Coppitt Key, FL

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About time we mentioned "The Dragon In My Garage"
Thanks for that one, Charles -- in all the hubbub I'd forgotten about that gem.
I'm sure both you and Carl won't mind if I post the story from that link here.

The Dragon In My Garage
by
Carl Sagan
"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

Suppose I seriously make such an assertion to you.

(I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin.)

Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle -- but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick."

And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists?

Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

The only thing you've really learned from my insistence that there's a dragon in my garage is that something funny is going on inside my head. You'd wonder, if no physical tests apply, what convinced me. The possibility that it was a dream or a hallucination would certainly enter your mind. But then, why am I taking it so seriously? Maybe I need help. At the least, maybe I've seriously underestimated human fallibility.

Imagine that, despite none of the tests being successful, you wish to be scrupulously open-minded. So you don't outright reject the notion that there's a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. You merely put it on hold. Present evidence is strongly against it, but if a new body of data emerge you're prepared to examine it and see if it convinces you.

Surely it's unfair of me to be offended at not being believed; or to criticize you for being stodgy and unimaginative -- merely because you rendered the Scottish verdict of "not proved."

Imagine that things had gone otherwise. The dragon is invisible all right, but footprints are being made in the flour as you watch. Your infrared detector reads off-scale. The spray paint reveals a jagged crest bobbing in the air before you. No matter how skeptical you might have been about the existence of dragons -- to say nothing about invisible ones -- you must now acknowledge that there's something here, and that in a preliminary way it's consistent with an invisible, fire-breathing dragon.

Now another scenario:

Suppose it's not just me. Suppose that several people of your acquaintance, including people who you're pretty sure don't know each other, all tell you that they have dragons in their garages -- but in every case the evidence is maddeningly elusive.

All of us admit we're disturbed at being gripped by so odd a conviction so ill-supported by the physical evidence. None of us is a lunatic. We speculate about what it would mean if invisible dragons were really hiding out in garages all over the world, with us humans just catching on. I'd rather it not be true, I tell you. But maybe all those ancient European and Chinese myths about dragons weren't myths at all.

Gratifyingly, some dragon-size footprints in the flour are now reported. But they're never made when a skeptic is looking.

An alternative explanation presents itself. On close examination it seems clear that the footprints could have been faked. Another dragon enthusiast shows up with a burnt finger and attributes it to a rare physical manifestation of the dragon's fiery breath.

But again, other possibilities exist. We understand that there are other ways to burn fingers besides the breath of invisible dragons. Such "evidence" -- no matter how important the dragon advocates consider it -- is far from compelling.

Once again, the only sensible approach is tentatively to reject the dragon hypothesis, to be open to future physical data, and to wonder what the cause might be that so many apparently sane and sober people share the same strange delusion.

© 1995 Carl Sagan

op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t

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10-23-2009 04:48 AM  8 years agoPost 634
RC/helicopman

rrNovice

USA

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Ok, here is one question for you Gball. Who built the garage or is it invisible too?

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10-23-2009 04:53 AM  8 years agoPost 635
GimbalFan (RIP)

rrProfessor

Big Coppitt Key, FL

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Who built the garage?
This lame attempt at an incongruous diversion reveals only that you've missed the point of Sagan's intellectual exercise. We're not surprised.

op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t

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10-23-2009 04:54 AM  8 years agoPost 636
landingskids

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Southern USA

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You are the one with the lame attempt GimballFan. Any Fool will tell you the darn garage didn't just pop up out of no where

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10-23-2009 04:57 AM  8 years agoPost 637
Blade_Master1

rrElite Veteran

Canada

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that was a very interesting read but I do see a few problems with that essay.

1 you can not compare God to a dragon even the one in this story
2 my imagination has nothing to do with my faith ( faith is a belief)
3 just because I believe in God does not make me dillusional
( it's not like I see him )
4 no-one keeps a dragon in the garage
( you keep it in the basement near the furnace besides where else would you park ?)
5 this will be an endless debate
6 you will find out soon enough

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10-23-2009 04:58 AM  8 years agoPost 638
GimbalFan (RIP)

rrProfessor

Big Coppitt Key, FL

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Any Fool will tell you the darn garage didn't just pop up out of no where
Any fool? Nah -- better leave that one alone.

When presented with an exercise in existential logic devised by one of the most respected members of the scientific community, all a Fable Thumper can think of to do for a reply is to attempt a lame re-write of the exercise.

Why? Because they can't manage a logical response to the exercise.

Again, we're not surprised.

op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t

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10-23-2009 04:58 AM  8 years agoPost 639
JimmyC

rrApprentice

Gaithersburg, Maryland USA

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GimbalFan, I would like to ask you, what do you think the very first thing to exist was? And where did it come from?

JimmyC

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10-23-2009 05:00 AM  8 years agoPost 640
1stPlace

rrApprentice

Ohio USA

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The Dragon In My Garage
by
Carl Sagan
That is fantastic! With as much Sagan as I have watched and read, I cannot believe this is the first time I have seen this gem. Thanks guys!

Diejenigen, die nicht lernen aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit bestimmt sind, zu wiederholen.

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