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HelicopterAerial Photography and Video › 45 degree flybar setup
09-04-2009 02:57 AM  8 years agoPost 21
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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OK, test flights four and five today. I just finished my Raptor 50 V2 converted to a e620. The wind picked up a bit today and it was a little gusty. Perfect day to fly helicopters. So I put the Raptor through some trim flights with the 90 degree setup and nothing changed from stock. It is still one of the smoothest helicopter design I have flown bar none. No shake no vibration. The helicopter was sliding all over the sky in the gust.

Then I decided to try the Logo 10 with the 45 degree setup again. Now it is showing it's stuff. In the wind it is perfectly stable. A better word is it is reluctant to move from a pure vertical position.

So I tried turning on the AP2000i IR and it was all over the place. So I landed and try to figure it out. The correction was off by 90 degrees. So I had to turn the optical sensor 90 degrees to see. Yes it worked. Between turning on the AP2000i and leaving it off I rather leave it off. The helicopter is that stable.

So I am finally convinced.

For the skeptics no I don't have time to do a controlled test because I don't think it is the same. 1) I don't have two exactly same rotor head setup that I can swap between a 45 degree setup and a 90 degree setup. Even if I use two Schluter Scout 60 head (which is getting hard to come by) I think the Bell/Hiller ratio is still a bit different. You have to realize I hack this setup together by combining components from many different helicopters.

Stet, yes I am very aware of what Schluter did with the Scout 60 head. No changing the swash upper links does not do anything different. The upper swash rotate with the rotor head at the same speed. However I did change the phasing of the swash lower plate with the AP2000i. Yes, I am taking the swash input and applying to the 45 degree flybar. I am also taking the swash input and applying to the 90 degree rotor blades. Then I mixed them two together via the Bell/Hiller mix. If you look at the mSR from Horizon Hobby it is doing the same thing. If you look at the Hirobo XRB and combining the top and bottom rotor together it is doing the same thing.

No flybarless is not what I am doing. Flybarless require electronic stabilizing. I am looking for a mechanical way to improve the stability. Why am I better off with a flybarless? That is certainly your opinion but not quite the point here.

Dana, I think you are onto something here. I think the stability came from different timing of the Bell mix versus the Hiller mix. We have not changed the timing of the Bell mix. We have moved the timing of the Hiller mix.

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09-04-2009 05:30 AM  8 years agoPost 22
Stet

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Key Largo FL

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Flybarless is more efficient, more adjustable to your liking and more stable. That is why you are better off with it. It won't be long before the flybars are gone.

Changing the upper links on the swash does make a big difference in timing in the moving reference frame, that is unless of course you are somehow electronically mixing that out with the AP200i. But I don't see how you can independently isolate the two flybar links without affecting the other two links going to the head. But I suppose it could.

But whatever, if you find it interesting to do all this, that is what the hobby is all about.

keepin' it real

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09-04-2009 05:38 AM  8 years agoPost 23
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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>>Flybarless is more efficient, more adjustable to your liking and more stable.<<

I agree flybarless has less moving parts and less drag. However it has to rely a lot on electronics. So it has advantages and disadvantages. Right now the electronics stabilizers are still not matured enough yet. Unless you go for the high dollars.

>>that is unless of course you are somehow electronically mixing that out with the AP200i.<<

Yes, there were a little bit of cross coupling when I first flew it. I did dial in some phasing offset from the AP2000i.

>>But whatever, if you find it interesting to do all this, that is what the hobby is all about.<<

The whole point of this exercise is because I was curious about the reason behind the Hirobo XRB's 45 degree flybar offset and how that adds to the stability. I couldn't find anything out there on the theory behind it. So I decided to make the 45 degree flybar offset myself on a larger scaler to investigate the reasons.

So far I think I may be closer to some answers but there are still a lot more questions.

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09-04-2009 06:11 AM  8 years agoPost 24
Stet

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Key Largo FL

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Yeah, I'm talkin the high dollar $475 Vbar unit, but have found it to be worth every penny, and many are coming on line and will surely catch up. Even Curtis is jumping in with his new all-in-one unit including governor. Plus, considering a good HH gyro (which is included in the unit) is around $200 anyway, another $275 is not that much more. I hated to do it, but once V4 Vbar came out, all of my helis (3) got converted. I'm also going to try integrating one into the general laser IR stabilizer for high altitude AP with my next generation stealth (small) AP rig based on the Trex 500. Need to get off my butt and drill the carbon plates so my waterjet guy can cut all my parts. That rig is going to really be something good. I have to be small as I am a guerrilla AP guy here in Los Angeles and cranking up a Joker with 800 blades is going to get the attention of the authorities. And with the wind coming off the cliffs, I need the stability.

Cliff Houses:

keepin' it real

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09-04-2009 09:55 AM  8 years agoPost 25
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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Stet,

Well yes, you are talking about the practical side of what you do. I am doing an investigation into what I am curious about. So we are doing two totally different goal in our quest. I don't doubt the benefit of flybarless. As a matter of fact I have a Vario flybarless electric head ready to go on one of my AP ships but that is another story on their own. I tested it briefly on my Logo 10 and it is not very stable without help. I used the Spartan AP2000i and it worked pretty well when I get it calibrated. I have not use the Helicommand Rigid with it yet which I will eventually try. I also have the Vbar as a must have on my short list.

Unfortunately I am investigating this 45 degree setup because I am simply very curious. I just flew a EFlite mSR and the flight characteristics between the mSR and the Logo 10 with the 45 degree flybar setup is extremely similar. So there is something about this 45 degree flybar setup. I need to get deeper into the reason why.

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09-04-2009 01:32 PM  8 years agoPost 26
copperclad

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NY

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Hi Hansen
when i first found out how well this worked i posted a few threads on it and the machines i had converted , the people that fly Quarks knew what i was talking about but didn't understand why i didn't just fly a Quark , and of course the people who haven't flown a Quark didn't have a clue what i was talking about , and the general consensus was a cross between why bother , and why would you ruin a perfectly good head

i have had a great time converting and flying different machines , and am very happy with both the results and the time spent , i enjoy both building and flying

it really is something you have to fly once to understand , and it is great to see someone else working on this , two heads are better than one , kindest regards

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09-04-2009 08:26 PM  8 years agoPost 27
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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Dana,

I am so encouraged by the result that I am seriously considering machining an aluminum head like you did. I kept on looking at the picture of your Predator head. That is simple and elegant. Right now mine is a little too complicated. Partly it is because of Schluter's older design.

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09-04-2009 08:39 PM  8 years agoPost 28
copperclad

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NY

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Hi Hansen
i made the Predator head and when i tried to hook it up , i realized that having the mixers on the blade grips was problematic , so i stared at it for about a day , and realized it would be easier to just rebuild the mixers , i had just finished the Mini Titan and liked the setup they used with the mixers on the flybar cage ( seesaw ) , i like making parts and the new mixers and cage were an interesting problem

when i first got into this , i didn't think there was much to making a new yoke ( head ) , i have built my own swashes and thought the the yoke didn't look that hard , i have to say i have a whole new appreciation for them , kindest regards

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09-05-2009 07:10 AM  8 years agoPost 29
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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>>when i first got into this , i didn't think there was much to making a new yoke ( head ) , i have built my own swashes and thought the the yoke didn't look that hard , i have to say i have a whole new appreciation for them <<

You are still light years ahead of me on machining parts. I just spent a whole day trying to make a new set of main blade grip control arms at a 45 degree angle. By the time I made almost the last cut I bungled it up. I am using a mini lathe and a vertical attachment. I really think that I should invest in a small vertical mill with an X-Y table minimum if I want to keep making parts.

What machine are you using? I really respect those guys that can cut a set of side frames with an upside down router (Fixit on the gasser forum).

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09-05-2009 11:04 AM  8 years agoPost 30
jofa3d

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Springville, AL, USA

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This is an interesting thread, is it possible for you'all to post a video of the choppers flying? If this works as you said I'd say it would be a much cheaper alternative to a flybarless system, which for some of us mortals that is just too much $$$.

Keep up the good work

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09-05-2009 02:08 PM  8 years agoPost 31
copperclad

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NY

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I just spent a whole day trying to make a new set of main blade grip control arms at a 45 degree angle. By the time I made almost the last cut I bungled it up.
Hi Hansen

Yes, Murphy can figure in big , i will be the first to admit that i have had that happen more than a few times , most of the machine time is spent in setup , and the more operations a part needs , the chances of a mistake or accident seem to climb exponentially , i have a nice heavy duty mill/lathe , but it is an older manual design , so although i can make nice parts , it is not CNC and i have to manually make each part

i know it can be discouraging but every mistake is a lesson , and even though some lessons might need to be learned more than once , you do learn to second guess some of the problems over time , i really enjoy figuring out how to layout and produce a part accurately , and then getting to fly a part you have made for yourself can be very rewarding

my mom used to say ' if it doesn't hurt , it's not a lesson ' , and i find that saying to be pretty true with machining also

i am cursed with being pig headed , and if something doesn't work out , i will bang my head against it till it does , one thing i have learned is you will spend a bunch of time on a part , and then lose it right at the home stretch , and of course you are there thinking ' dayum! , i am going to have to start all over ' , but i find the second time around always seems to go a lot faster

kindest regards

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09-05-2009 04:27 PM  8 years agoPost 32
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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>>is it possible for you'all to post a video of the choppers flying?<<

I am going to see what I can do. Unfortunately I don't think the mechanical method is really any cheaper than the electronic stabilization. You have to calculate the amount of time it takes some one to convert the head to 45 degree flybar. If some one is to manufacture a 45 degree flybar setup it may be just as expensive to purchase than say an AP2000i.

>>i am cursed with being pig headed<<

Yeah I am glad I am also very stubborn. I wound up changing course and made a better Bell/Hiller mixing arm out of aluminum that won't twist. So I did accomplish the goal in a different way.

Now, I just figured how I can modify the Trex 450 head to 45 degree flybar. I will be doing that for the next couple of days.

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09-05-2009 04:49 PM  8 years agoPost 33
rerazor

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Mich.

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CC,

You have always been working on something in your "mad laboratory". Good to see you around here. I still remember you helping me during the piccolo days. "Swatting at those moths".

Robert

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09-05-2009 08:00 PM  8 years agoPost 34
copperclad

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NY

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Hi rerazor

yes of coarse , i remember how jazzed i was to follow JJ's directions on converting a CD rom motor over to run a piccolo , and getting our wings from Radd , kindest regards

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09-05-2009 10:13 PM  8 years agoPost 35
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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>>yes of coarse , i remember how jazzed i was to follow JJ's directions on converting a CD rom motor over to run a piccolo , and getting our wings from Radd , kindest regards <<

Wait a minute Dana, JJ and Radd? Were you on the Ikarus board? I was messing with Piccolo's and ECO 8's before also. My first electric helicopter was the ECO 8. I still have at least one of them. I just flew my Moth a couple of days ago. I still have it sitting on my dining room table. I am trying to figure out how to turn the into a 45 degree flybar setup also.

I am about finished with the Trex 450 head. I got it made and mounted just looking for spare linkages to make it work. I extended the hub about 5 mm higher.

FWIW, I went to meet up with the guys (Radd and twenty more) in Tennessee a few years ago.

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09-05-2009 10:47 PM  8 years agoPost 36
jofa3d

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Springville, AL, USA

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"I am going to see what I can do. Unfortunately I don't think the mechanical method is really any cheaper than the electronic stabilization. You have to calculate the amount of time it takes some one to convert the head to 45 degree flybar. If some one is to manufacture a 45 degree flybar setup it may be just as expensive to purchase than say an AP2000i."

Thank you. You have a point there, buying just the tools to do the work would already be expensive, and paying someone to do it equally expensive in my opinion. But good work nonetheless!

Looking forward for more news.

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09-06-2009 12:19 AM  8 years agoPost 37
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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>>buying just the tools to do the work would already be expensive, and paying someone to do it equally expensive in my opinion<<

Exactly, it is simply a work of love. You have to enjoy tinkering and don't count the amount of time that goes into making something work. When I bungle up a part after working on it all day it gets even worse.

As Stet said, it is easier to spend $475 and buy a vBar from Mikado and be done with it. Why spend hours on end just to make something and found out it doesn't work.

I just finished making a 45 degree head for one of my Trex 450's. It flew fine but the stability is not what I expected. So back to the drawing board and play some more.

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09-06-2009 03:37 AM  8 years agoPost 38
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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OK, I figured out why the Trex 450 was not as stable. I forgot to adjust the phasing of the swash plate. I still had 90 degree input on the swash. So I wanted to adjust the phasing without doing any mechanical and adding anything electronic like the Spartan 2000i.

I know my Multiplex EVO transmitters can do it real easily but I have a 2.4 GHz receiver on the Trex 450 and didn't want to change everything around.

So I resort to read the JR 9303 manual (it helps sometimes) trying to figure out if it can do a swash phasing adjustment. The short answer is yes it can and I have learned something else. I can also do a swash phasing adjustment on the Spektrum DX7 also. It is so simple that it hit me as a "doh" moment. I just take two programmable mixes and mix aileron and elevator onto each other. The percentage of mix will become the amount of phasing adjustment. In other words if I have aileron as the master and elevator as the slave and I dial in 100% mix, the swash plate will move at a 45 degree angle because the elevator will follow the aileron at a 1 to 1 ratio.

Another interesting thing I found out. The mSR has a pure 45 degree swash input because it has a pure Hiller control with no Bell control. The swash control the flybar only and the tilt of the flybar control the angle of attack on the rotor blades. Where as the Trex 450 and other larger collective helicopter has both cyclic and collective and a Bell/Hiller mixer. Depending on the ratio of the Bell/Hiller mixing arm the swash phasing offset is now something less than 45 degree.

That is the reason why the Logo 10 flew so well when I dialed in 22 degree of phasing offset. On the initial mix I had the percentage set at 100% for the Trex 450. That meant the swash has a 45 degree input. So I backed the percentage to 75% and it is working very well. I can play around with the ratio and will probably fine tune it better.

Right now the plastic head is vibrating a lot so it is time to use the metal head.

More later.

Oops, I forgot pictures:

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09-06-2009 02:28 PM  8 years agoPost 39
copperclad

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NY

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Hi Hansen

here in an interesting article on mSR bell hiller mixing

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1105743

good work on your 450 the head looks great , i see it looks like you are sleeving a stock head to get it offset at 45 degrees , very interesting information on using phase adjustment with the TX , i can see i am going to have to try reading my manual again also , cheers

PS: YES , my first heli was a Piccolo and i cut my teeth on forums over at Ikarus , it has turned out to be the best of hobbies

.

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09-06-2009 09:14 PM  8 years agoPost 40
SeismicCWave

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Hilo, Hawaii

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>>here in an interesting article on mSR bell hiller mixing<<

Thanks for the link. Sure is interesting to read about other hobbyists' take on the setup. I am not sure if I agree since there is no direct linkage to the main grip so it is still all Hiller control no matter what the angle of the flybar is.

>> i see it looks like you are sleeving a stock head to get it offset at 45 degrees<<

That is the simplest way I can modify with Trex 450 head without making a brand new hub from scratch. I can use my lathe as a lathe better than as a mill.

I think I can modify the Trex 600 head the same way.

>>very interesting information on using phase adjustment with the TX , i can see i am going to have to try reading my manual again also <<

The thought just hit me like a brick when I read the manual. It is so simple. I used two programmable mix. Mix 1 uses aileron as master and elevator as slave. Mix 2 uses elevator as master and aileron as slave. They are on all the time. So every time I move the aileron, depending on the ratio the swash will move the elevator input also. By the time I have a 100% mix the swash will tilt at 45 degrees.

>>my first heli was a Piccolo and i cut my teeth on forums over at Ikarus , it has turned out to be the best of hobbies<<

Ah, the good ole days. I cut my teeth on a Schluter Helistar. I actually took my first flight with a prebuilt Hirobo Shuttle. That lasted three flights before I destroyed it. The Helistar was more successful because it had a gyro on it. So I was relying on electronic stability augmentation from the beginning.

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