RunRyder RC
 6  Topic Subscribe
WATCH
 6 pages [ <<    <     2      3     ( 4 )     5      6     NEXT    >> ] 3501 views
HelicopterOff Topics News & Politics › Health Care in Norway
09-03-2009 10:24 PM  8 years agoPost 61
Tintin

rrVeteran

Akershus, Norway

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Well Spiff, I wasn't talking about figures from a nigerian study which I clearly state. I'm talking about figures from a US made study. And I was wondering why figures for non-european countries from a US study could not be used....

You are not looking at the same paper as I am as the one I've looked at from the American Cancer Society shows Global Breast Cancer Death Rates.

Anyhow, comparing figures of mortality or survival rate for 1 or 3 types of cancer does hardly give any "evidence" that either of the systems are better than the other unless it's very personal and you have one of those types of cancer.
If I had presented figures like that as evidence in any of the papers I wrote during my studies my professors would have laughed at me. It's like going to 2 different stores and then buy 1 apple from each and then use that as evidence as to which store is better. Obviously not a very good study wouldn't you say?

If you want to compare you would at least need to compare mortality/survival rate of all lethal illnesses (and take into account not only survival rate for those that in fact get treatment, if I'm not mistaken you would have a certain number of people that doesn't receive any treatment at all except maybe emergency treatment towards the end. Treating terminally ill are just one part of health services and the other bits and pieces needs looking at too imo. I hope the bits you want to compare are bits none of us will need in a very long time still. I'm more concerned if I can get help if I'm hurt or get another pneumonia...so far our, the french, the swedish and the greek health systems have treated me excellent.

On the tv news right now the story about a handicapped US woman who has been dependent on drugs her whole life, she has been given the wrong dosage and have had her life destroyed basicly and her insurance does not cover the cost...here she would at least not have that problem if mistreated....in the US she's dependent on volunteers helping her out...
Is it any different if a US organization forwards you the same e mail?
What I get from US organizations usually ends up right where the ones from Nigeria end up, in the trash. All you guys seem to be able to send out is crp mail about Viagra etc, you must be world champions of spam without doubt...

No the name calling / belitteling doesn't bug me, I'm just seriously wondering what you actually get out of deliberately doing it? Does it make you feel like a better man? Or is it like in most cases that you are uncertain and feel a need to compensate for it? That would be my guess and therefore it doesn't help improve the impression I get of those that do it...

“Getting an inch of snow is like winning 10 cents in the lottery.”

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-03-2009 10:31 PM  8 years agoPost 62
Tintin

rrVeteran

Akershus, Norway

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

On second thought, why don't we quit giving money as foreign aid to all of these countries that hate us and we could pay for health care many times over.
well you aren't actuallt world champs on per capita donations, pretty far from it if I'm not mistaken. On the other hand, if you had used a small part of what you spend on arms you could probably all have free health care....

But then your point isn't really the price of health care is it, it's that it shouldn't be goverment run.

I wonder really where the problem is, it'll be the same doctors and nurses doing the job. Will they do a worse job if they are paid by another employer? I work just as hard for any employer I've chosen to work for and cannot really understand why they should be much different. The docs and nurses I know love their work and are into it because of that. Who's paying is irrelevant (how much is of course not).

“Getting an inch of snow is like winning 10 cents in the lottery.”

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-03-2009 10:57 PM  8 years agoPost 63
Dennis (RIP)

rrApprentice

Oregon

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Tintin
I wonder really where the problem is, it'll be the same doctors and nurses doing the job. Will they do a worse job if they are paid by another employer?
Tintin obviously is not aware of the mess that this government has made of Social Security, Medicare & Medicaid. If he was, then he might have a better understanding of why we don't trust the government to take over health care here.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 02:28 AM  8 years agoPost 64
jay21

rrNovice

Junction City OR

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

When you make corporations pay the highest taxes of any country, they leave.
Frankly it seems to me they have been leaving for a while, not because of taxes, but because of wages...
You are wrong TinTin

USA corporate taxes are the second highest in the world next to Japan!

That is true! They don't leave because of wages. Do the math and the research before you throw that crap out........

Just when I thought you could be a smart guy! You just have been led down the wrong path is all. I forgive you for that!

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 02:40 AM  8 years agoPost 65
spaceman spiff

rrKey Veteran

Tucson

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Well Spiff, I wasn't talking about figures from a nigerian study which I clearly state.
Ya know ADD is treatable. Well it is here at least...
It's like going to 2 different stores and then buy 1 apple from each and then use that as evidence as to which store is better. Obviously not a very good study wouldn't you say?
Kinda figured you would say something like that. Precisely why i insisted you show me just one thing your system does better. Remember? Epic fail BTW.

Get some rest, a nice cup of tea. Perhaps you'll be in better shape to learn something in a day or two.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 07:54 AM  8 years agoPost 66
Tintin

rrVeteran

Akershus, Norway

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

You are funny Spiff. Hope for your sake you wise up if you ever are to do any serious work where stats will be used to prove or make anything seem likely. If you do it like you did here (and certainly if you add all the nice words you need to back up your proof) I'm afraid you will have an eye opener. Anyhow good luck with that and hope the kind words you throw around you at least makes you feel like a man as you look like a boy using them...

jay21: It seems like there are more sides to that case, I find stuff like:
The U.S. corporate tax burden is smaller than average for developed countries.[1] Corporations in 19 of the member states of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development paid 16.1 percent of their profits in taxes between 2000 and 2005, on average, while corporations in the United States paid 13.4 percent.
Not sure how that one is calculated, ours is 50% on any surplus you make so you don't really want to make a surplus when you run a small company.. (I know, I have tried it...)
The United States has plethora of generous corporate tax breaks. As the Treasury Department has noted, the United States’ low effective tax rate reflects its “narrow corporate tax base,” which is the result of “accelerated depreciation allowances [and] special tax provisions for particular business sectors … as well as debt finance and tax planning
The sites backing you are talking about tax on income. Companies in our socialistic country doesn't pay tax on income (individuals do)
They only pay tax on surplus and wages basicly. Owners will have to pay tax on dividend. Found a comparison where it says our corporate tax is 28% which is not correct, that is the rate for dividend paid to shareholders.

I would be very amazed if US businesses were not moving to low cost countries because of wages, as from the rest of the developped countries they do. I can't really imagine guys like Nike etc moved production to China, India and Vietnam because of taxes. Would you make shoes or clothes for what they are willing to pay you?

Sure there will always be those that move because of taxes. One of our richest business owners are thinking about moving to Switzerland because of taxes, but not corporate taxes, taxes on his billion $ surplus.....we and you won't be able to compete with the asian wages for many decades (not untill the catch up with us), hence labour demanding industry will be moved there. What we have to do is turn our production to high-value merchandise..

“Getting an inch of snow is like winning 10 cents in the lottery.”

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 10:11 AM  8 years agoPost 67
spaceman spiff

rrKey Veteran

Tucson

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

You are funny Spiff. Hope for your sake you wise up if you ever are to do any serious work where stats will be used to prove or make anything seem likely. If you do it like you did here (and certainly if you add all the nice words you need to back up your proof) I'm afraid you will have an eye opener.
LOL!

Amazing!

Teach away Maestro....

Teach me the difference between incidence rate, death rate, and survival rate.

i wait impatiently, quivering in fear of impending humiliation.

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 10:40 AM  8 years agoPost 68
Tintin

rrVeteran

Akershus, Norway

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

If you bothered reading you would know by now that that's not where your problem lays, I can tho teach you that you need more than 1 example to prove anything...but then you'd have to start reading...

tell me, have you ever done any lab work and written a report?

“Getting an inch of snow is like winning 10 cents in the lottery.”

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 03:03 PM  8 years agoPost 69
spaceman spiff

rrKey Veteran

Tucson

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Dude, they are fractions, you probably heard of them?

A number on the top, a litel "/" amd a number on the bottom?

Aparently you never learned that what the number on the bottom actually represents is just as important (or more important in this case), than the number on the top.

For example: 1/100K of an apple is different than 1/100K of an orange, and is different from 1/100K of a group of people who for the most part DID NOT HAVE a particular disease. ( hint alert ) ( hint alert)

As for my qualifications in the study of fractions: I had 5 years of intensive training to prepare me for that difficult conceptual hurdle.

( 2 years in preschool 3 years primary )

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 03:55 PM  8 years agoPost 70
Tintin

rrVeteran

Akershus, Norway

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Now you are maybe getting closer to what is actually the problem with your way of interpreting the stats.

The figures u are using to compare 1 to 28 something health systems is in fact just a fraction of the truth. Deaths from your 2 types of cancer represent only 2/x reasons for dying (or diseases to survive if you want) and the x in this case is surely a 4 digit number, probably even 5 digit. (+ you seem to ignore that there is a huge variance between European countries too, but that's a different matter) Anyhow, as long as the x is 4 or 5 digit, your little 2 on the top is quite insignificant as you so kindly helped me point out....thank you for helping me make that point again...

If you read my posts again you will se I've never uttered a word about your knowledge about fractions, what I have doubted is your ability to interpret statistics numbers and draw conclusions from them (and maybe your abilities to read my posts cause you seem to ignore large parts of them and reply with a different topic like your fractions now)

“Getting an inch of snow is like winning 10 cents in the lottery.”

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 04:08 PM  8 years agoPost 71
RonHill

rrVeteran

FLL, FL

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Tintin

well you aren't actuallt world champs on per capita donations, pretty far from it if I'm not mistaken
But we pretty much are the World Champs when it comes to real dollars. You do know that the World Champs are based on total number of points, not total number of points divided by the number of players right?
But then your point isn't really the price of health care is it, it's that it shouldn't be goverment run.
Half right... It is that we know how Govt run programs most times end up costing more than they deliver and how they are rife with inefficiency. And how most of these programs are NOT sustainable.

Why would anyone want another program that has been shown not to run efficiently by other organizations both private and public, to be run by an organization that has been shown not to run anything efficiently?

Some want to claim that the Military is an example of a good govt program.... Yes, except for the staggering costs.

When dealing with the Govt, you can have good and REALLY expensive, or crap and expensive.

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 04:10 PM  8 years agoPost 72
spaceman spiff

rrKey Veteran

Tucson

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Um actually that would be 3 now. 2 i posted, an one you imeptly treid to pass off as a counter.

hense the lesson in fractions which went right over your head. (shocking)

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 04:17 PM  8 years agoPost 73
Tintin

rrVeteran

Akershus, Norway

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I kinda guessed you would go for that one Spiff, let's have a look at what I wrote:
Deaths from your 2 types of cancer
You see you only brought up 2 and as you kindly confirm, I brought up the third, so my fractions are still correct as long as you can manage to read the text also....where it's clearly stated your 2 types, hence obviously not including mine. Did you always give your answers without having read the task in school too?

“Getting an inch of snow is like winning 10 cents in the lottery.”

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 04:41 PM  8 years agoPost 74
spaceman spiff

rrKey Veteran

Tucson

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

If you read my posts again you will se I've never uttered a word about your knowledge about fractions,
and if you read my posts again you will see i never uttered a word about your uttering a word about my knowlege of fractions.

So there!

...and we agree that there are 3 solidly on my side, one (giggle) you ineptly provided for me intended as a counter. score is 3-0. ?

Ahem...ineptness and embarrassment you could have avoided had you read your task. BTW
Tell you what Pumpkin, you post 10 lethal ailments that are handled better in Europe or Canada (5 year survival rate or similar) and i will concede defeat, tell you you are smarter than I, and agree to not argue with you on any subject for 6 months.

If those 10 are using procedures or medicine not developed by a US company i won't post at all for 12 months, and will send you 200$

Post 2 and i will not argue for 1 month.

Reference links from any professional site acceptable without question. (anything but a hill billy blog counts )

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 06:15 PM  8 years agoPost 75
Tintin

rrVeteran

Akershus, Norway

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

No but you did make a point about knowing stuff about them, yet you still think 2 out of xk is a significant number even after having made a point out of it not being so...it's a bit hard to follow when you act irrational

I still wasn't aware this was a pissing contest, so I haven't been keeping score, that is kiddy stuff too. How old are you actually?
(giggle)
Giggle ?? Young and female????

And the figures I used did in fact not support your case (you still dug up another paper, yes, but mine did not in fact and mine didn't even have figures for Norway at all btw...) (They show abt 1/2 of Europe with figures higher than yours and the other with lower)....anyhow, since you cling to your logic, how come China has a death rate only 1/3 of yours, how would you explain that using your previous logic? If I apply your logic, they must have a health system 3 times as good as yours, trust we agree on that ?

Or is this true?
ApParently you never learnd/learnt that what the number on the bottom actually represents is just as important (or more important in this case), than the number on the top.
You do understand you just said your fractions are very very small ones, but you still claim they are big enough to judge a complete system by??? I think you have to decide about one or the other as you cannot have both....

“Getting an inch of snow is like winning 10 cents in the lottery.”

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 06:38 PM  8 years agoPost 76
spaceman spiff

rrKey Veteran

Tucson

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

China has a death rate only 1/3 of yours, how would you explain that using your previous logic?
Assuming for the sake of argument that that is true, the explanation easy. Take your botched attempt for example.

There are High incidence and death rates of breast cancer in US, Yet... survival rates are more than double that of Europe.
Survival: Five year survival rates from breast cancer is about 89% in the united states and 76% in Europe.
Or put another way: 11% who get breast cancer in the US die in 5 years.
24% die in Europe.

How can that be? Figure that out and you will have learned something.

wish to verify? page 11 entitled "survival"

http://www.cancer.org/downloads/STT...s_2007_rev2.pdf

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 06:54 PM  8 years agoPost 77
Tintin

rrVeteran

Akershus, Norway

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

What explanation? You didn't provide any...

Pls explain why the death rate is 3 times as high in the US as in China...

And you are still dodging the fractions.....

Lets say there are 1000 death causes...would 3/1000 be a significant number??

“Getting an inch of snow is like winning 10 cents in the lottery.”

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 07:12 PM  8 years agoPost 78
1stPlace

rrApprentice

Ohio USA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Fantastic article!
To expand government programs is not “reform.” It is an extension of sixty years of government interventions. The government now controls nearly fifty percent of all health care dollars—paid for by skyrocketing prices, taxes and borrowing. The correlation with history, and with the law of supply and demand, is precise and inescapable.

The primary cause of medical price increases is the government coercions. But the cause of the coercions is the idea that health care is a right. Until we understand that nothing is a “right” if others must be forced to provide it, we will continue to swallow the same poison, and we will reap even worse consequences in the future.

Diejenigen, die nicht lernen aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit bestimmt sind, zu wiederholen.

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 07:30 PM  8 years agoPost 79
spaceman spiff

rrKey Veteran

Tucson

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

How about a hypothetical example...

The Sun shines more here than in Norway. Say there is a horrible disease that occurs from exposure to sun,, lets call it "sun spot" disease...

Here: 50% of the population here gets "sunspot" disease, all get treated and 20% of those who get the disease die. We get an incident rate of 50,000/100,000 death rate of 10,000/100,000 but the treatment is relatively effective, so you get an 80% survival rate.

Norway 5% of the population of Norway gets "sunspot" disease, all get treated and 40% of those who get the disease die. Norway gets an incident rate of 5,000/100,000 death rate of 2,000/100,000 but for whatever reason the treatment is not as good so you get an 60% survival rate.

if you are intereseted in the effect of the sun exposure the incidence rate and is the one that is most usefull.

If you are interested the effectiveness of the treatment the only one that is usefull at all is the survival rate.

Death rates: 10,000/100,000 Vs 1,000/100,000 (Yea! socialism!)
survival rate: 80% Vs 60% (Sorry, we are holding you back in 3rd grade )

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
09-04-2009 07:35 PM  8 years agoPost 80
Tintin

rrVeteran

Akershus, Norway

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Spiff, I've never been talking about incident rate, you are the one bringing that one up all the time.

I quote:
Pls explain why the death rate is 3 times as high in the US as in China...
And a simple yes/no question...
Lets say there are 1000 death causes...would 3/1000 be a significant number??
Care to answer those 2 simple questions?

“Getting an inch of snow is like winning 10 cents in the lottery.”

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
WATCH
 6 pages [ <<    <     2      3     ( 4 )     5      6     NEXT    >> ] 3501 views
HelicopterOff Topics News & Politics › Health Care in Norway
 Print TOPIC  Make Suggestion 

 6  Topic Subscribe

Monday, December 11 - 1:28 pm - Copyright © 2000-2017 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online