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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › Where is Dr. Fibonacchi's video???
09-03-2009 08:37 PM  8 years agoPost 41
Billme

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MS

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Temp is relative as to different equipment used... I have the fluke high end, and had it way before Wallys fan....I saw as much as 40 deg change in temps in the hot weather down here..

These little hand held, even if you compare them to high end equipment, they may still read different, as to how good the optics with different metals etc...

Something like the Venoms always read higher compared to my fluke..
...

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09-03-2009 10:22 PM  8 years agoPost 42
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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We're still talking about heat soak, right? And heat soak is defined as the theoretical increase in temperature that the engine experiences as soon as the fan is turned off?

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09-03-2009 10:33 PM  8 years agoPost 43
Billme

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Yes, but I'm not into this argument..Just letting folks know how I feel about getting Temps...

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09-04-2009 01:09 AM  8 years agoPost 44
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Yeah...

We were talking about heatsoak as I spent time and logged temps of two different machines one with the zimmerman and one with the century v4 which holds the heat longer and neither showed this heat soak that makes temps rise after shutdown.

As I said originally and I've shown it on video here - I don't see it happening on my machines and unless someone shows me otherwise I will continue to believe that it doesn't happen to anything measurable or significant on our motors.

Carpman is the second independant guy to verify my findings. Carpman, did you auto down when you measured the temps? I found if I auto down I lose alot of heat and can be in the same range as you are. I've been checking mine after running it in idle up 2 and doing a bunch of full power climbouts to crank up the heat. If not it could be just a difference in heat guns which I find absolutely possible. Seen it myself with other people's guns when compared to mine - hence when I go check people's motors I use mine as I know where the motor runs good with my numbers.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4129 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3187 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1425 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 185 flts

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09-04-2009 02:02 AM  8 years agoPost 45
Dr. Fibinotchi

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Sioux Falls SD

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yea

Raja,

Please believe what you want, but don't tell others it doesnt exist. We can goto the level of why later. Read up on it you might learn something...

http://cjbfire.com/Heatsoak.pdf
http://www.mawsolutions.com/html/he...on_engines.html
http://autos.yahoo.com/maintain/rep.../ques093_4.html
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/...d-racing-57324/
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/...7/thermosy.html
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f25...eat-soak-50397/
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/ar...p/t-784894.html

-C

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

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09-04-2009 02:12 AM  8 years agoPost 46
Justin Stuart (RIP)

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Plano, Texas

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Cody, your posts do confirm the fact that "heat soak" occurs with internal combustion engines, but I think because the mass of these Zenoah engines is relatively small compared to their surface area that heat soak doesn't happen to nearly the same extent as with the larger displacement engines (such as the big block V8's mentioned in the links).

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09-04-2009 02:34 AM  8 years agoPost 47
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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I didn't say

It doesn't happen ever in anything. I said it doesn't happen with our motors to any measureable value and my temp guage is there to prove it.

Also, don't forget Wally said that heat soak raises the temp by as much as 60 degrees after shutdown. You read that right? I mean I don't have to go cut and paste it for you, do I? And due to this it weakens my ring and breaks down the motor. If its that's much or even 1/2 that don't you think my temp guage would show SOMETHING?

Just as an FYI, #1 I never warm up my motor (it warms up in flight and I see the smoke and burps the first couple of minutes as I go around) and #2 I never cool down my motor except if I auto in that helps indirectly. But if I don't auto I shut it down as soon as I land and go get it off the runway, I don't sit on the runway idling for a minute after landing for cooldown. Many times there are other people flying and when you land you get your bird out of the way.

Given that, I have not seen any ill effects from not doing this, and I've had engines last over 100 hours or close to 500 flights before sending them in for service, most of the time due to an upgrade.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4129 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3187 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1425 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 185 flts

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09-04-2009 02:58 AM  8 years agoPost 48
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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I did read one of the links

This one:

http://cjbfire.com/Heatsoak.pdf

And this makes sense to me:

"The phenomenon known as "heat soak" occurs when the engine is turned off. At this time, the combustion process is terminated. This terminates the momentum of the crankshaft, which in turn stops the turning of the water pump. As the coolant is no longer being circulated, the engine block and cylinder temperature increase for a period of approximately 3 to 10 minutes, depending on the engine design and additional components."

"The common misconception held is that the "heat soak" phenomenon will increase the temperature of the exhaust manifold and exhaust system. As the combustion process is occurring, the exhaust manifold reaches its maximum design temperature. The exhaust manifold is usually located at the side of the engine ”head" and is exposed to the open air. This allows the manifold to radiate heat while the engine is operating. While the exhaust manifold is attached to the engine “head” by bolts, the surface area in contact with the head is significantly smaller than the surface area exposed to the surrounding air. This results in more heat being released through radiation than is being added from the small surface area due to conduction."

Reading those two paragraphs negates your argument. The first paragraph makes sense st the engine cylinders and pistons run really hot, I don't know exact figures, like 1000 degrees say for example, and the coolant comes through and takes heat away from the engine and radiates it out through the radiator. The coolant temperature is always below the engine temperature, usually about 189f at my Mercedes is regulated at with the thermostat, and when you stop the motor and the water pump stops, then coolant trapped inside the engine is going to "heat soak" and go up in temperature from 189f to somewhere in the middle of the high temp of the engine cylinders before everything equalizes and starts to drop back down. This makes perfect sense, but it doesn't apply the same way to the aircooled engine.

On the muffler side of the paragraph, this explains why the Century muffler which holds the heat longer did not show in my tests to raise the engine temp any after shutdown. The contact area between the exhaust and muffler is too small, and the muffler radiates the heat out much easier than transfer it back to the motor. According to them the exhaust is the hottest, and it will never rise any more from the point of shutdown.

So yes they are talking about heatsoak, but saying that the higher engine temperatures are raising the coolant temperature that is trapped inside the motor after shutdown due to the pump quitting.

This has been "heat soak 201"

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4129 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3187 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1425 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 185 flts

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09-04-2009 07:04 AM  8 years agoPost 49
Dr. Fibinotchi

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Sioux Falls SD

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hmm

The links are pointed at 4 stroke and cooling systems, but mean the same thing on a two stroke.

While I have not seen 60 degree increase I certainly have seen more than a couple degrees especially with the tuned pipe.

Yes the exhaust is the hottest, but we are talking about the fins on the head not the 1/32" thick pipe that cools in minutes.

-C

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

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09-04-2009 08:49 AM  8 years agoPost 50
carpman

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Spain

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I don't think we need to argue about this every time, Raja goes out does his videos and then the "heat soak" lectures start to disprove what he has just shown as fact. Time to stop with the theory quotes and report facts with regards to our motors.

Heat gun accuracy for this experiment is pretty unimportant too, it could be reading 50 degrees higher than it should be, but it still shows a slow decrease in temperature as opposed to a rise.

Raja, I just rebuilt my Spectra and was giving it its first flight just figure 8's nothing fancy and then in to land, hence the lower temperature as it had not been working as hard. The lower fins were reading 213 and the upper 185, both we're decreasing all the time. I was using the temp gun because I am now using the Zimmerman rear mount and was concerned about someone blaming it for melting their motor plus I am still tuning the needles.

On another note I have seen heat soak on my nitro engines, but I have not measured it yet, but will try. I notice it on the backplate when measuring temperatures with my finger. It definitely gets hotter over the first couple of minutes, the fins I am not sure about will measure those as well. If I can show heat soak on a nitro engine and not on the Zenoah can any one explain that?

KEVIN
Trex 500ESP | Trex 600NSP | Trex 700 Gasser | MA Spectra G

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09-04-2009 11:28 AM  8 years agoPost 51
shawmcky

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Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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The bottom line,and the most important bit.

[quote]I,ve had engines last over 100 hours or 500 flights before sending them in for a service,most of the time for an upgrade.(unquote)The way the motor sounds in flight,i can believe it too.At the end of the day it is a good set up that counts I.M.H.O.

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

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09-04-2009 12:13 PM  8 years agoPost 52
carpman

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Spain

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At the end of the day it is a good set up that counts I.M.H.O.
+1 if it ain't broke don't fix, mess with it or listen to bad advice

KEVIN
Trex 500ESP | Trex 600NSP | Trex 700 Gasser | MA Spectra G

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09-04-2009 12:21 PM  8 years agoPost 53
shawmcky

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Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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carpman

Exactly

Team- unbiased opinion.K.I.S.S principle upheld here

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09-05-2009 01:01 AM  8 years agoPost 54
Doug Darby

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Dallas, Texas

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Raja... All I can say is WOW on the Autos...

Way to go Raja.. In my area, that's called putting your money where your mouth is!!! Great Auto's I bet I watched them 50 times...

I could fly 10,000 gallons through my gasser and probably never be that good, but I still have fun.

Thanks so much for sharing.

doug

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09-05-2009 01:12 AM  8 years agoPost 55
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Hey Doug!

Glad you enjoyed them! They are fun to do a little hairy at first but after you find out that you can do those things and the heli is not going to fall out of the sky you build up a comfort level and they come a little easier.

I'm working on getting the skids on the ground now for a sliding landing, but not there quite yet. I don't want to dig the tail in the ground and bust it, so I have to take it slow and it will come!

Practice practice practice, you'll get good trust me!

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4129 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3187 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1425 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 185 flts

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09-10-2009 04:51 PM  8 years agoPost 56
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Not trying to be a stickler but...

The absence of videos showing a temperature rise on our heli motors means there isn't anything significant or what?

I'm assuming nobody has been able to record a video showing it hence why it hasn't been posted.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4129 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3187 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1425 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 185 flts

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09-10-2009 06:10 PM  8 years agoPost 57
Dr. Fibinotchi

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Sioux Falls SD

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Raja..

I did do a flight last night. I will shoot you a pm. I don't want to hash on this especially after near zero sleep last night from the little guy.

We have diffrent setups and have diffrent results. Both showing and agreeing this with diffrent videos. Significant temp rise of 60 degrees no I don't see either from last nights flight, but as you saw on my earlier video something does exist.

On a positive note I tried 13k (1910 head) last night too for the first time in a while since the hanson with tuned pipe. I am very happy at smoothness and power. With the sabs it seems to really like this head speed in wind it doesnt woof and poof as much either. no bogging on tick tocks although its not fast like a nitro it is what it is.

-C

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

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09-10-2009 06:15 PM  8 years agoPost 58
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Tic tocs

Hey Cody:

You probably do tic tocs alot better than I do as I don't do or practice those often and I'd love to see yours in action with the 1900 head speed! Sometime when you get a chance post those as I know Jrock is always concerned a gasser can't tic toc and you can show him how its done

We can talk later no problem! I lost sleep the past few nights as well playing World of Warcraft with my friend in CT online. Man that's an addicting game and you get that headache when you stay up until 3am like I did last night. I'm taking a break from that now, enough I need to get my normal sleep back!

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4129 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3187 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1425 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 185 flts

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09-10-2009 10:13 PM  8 years agoPost 59
Dr. Fibinotchi

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Sioux Falls SD

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sure thing

Raja,

I have talked a million times with you on diffrent things and its always fine to agree or to disagree. Its really too bad we can't compare things if you lived closer. I enjoy the testing and prototype work.

WOW...I stay away from that stuff. I used to do the Starcraft thing many hours, but now married kids and all there is not time. Maybe when my youngest is our of diapears I can relax a little..ha

Flying..Lets see I have 3 gallons this year and 2 last year and 5 before that. I am not sure I can even do a snake anymore like I could with the 50...lol. I will shoot what I can.

-C

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

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09-10-2009 11:12 PM  8 years agoPost 60
Justin Stuart (RIP)

rrMaster

Plano, Texas

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A 1900rpm head speed won't make anything self destruct, will it?

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