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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › new gasser??
12-30-2009 11:54 PM  7 years agoPost 41
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Wow

I read alot of things I could respond to, but I'm going to let you have the last word. Maybe someone else wants to explain things, I'm not going to.

I'm just interested to see your up close hover video when you get it.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4129 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3187 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1425 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 185 flts

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12-31-2009 12:13 AM  7 years agoPost 42
crash n' burn99

rrApprentice

ottawa, canada

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Rbort Looking at your video, I can honestly say your motor looks smoother than mine, I find mine very smooth but the Hanson engin is visibly smoother.

Now how do I get a Hanson Engin?

Do proctologists chew there finger nails when there nervouse?

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12-31-2009 12:25 AM  7 years agoPost 43
smallplanes

rrElite Veteran

S.C. ,SSA

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Raja knows what i know,that joker will bounce. Man you don't have to hide it where all in this together world wide. You help me i try to help you,if it had not been for that i would still be cusing everytime i get me Spectra out. It was not the heli it was me and a motor that ran like crap,now i can take it out crank it and fly and not have to worry about something breaking due to the vibration. I just want to let every one know, the motor still does not run like a nitro but it is way better than before. Al said the crank was out about .004 thou that don't sound like much but it must have been. I have trued cranks myself on a poulan chainsaw engine before for a 27% Texas Hurricane and had it near perfect and the motor cranks by hand and runs like a champ,i don't know how it would run with a light piston in it. I did not even want to try me heli motor as Al said it needed a light piston and i don't know anything about doing that so i sent it to him and it was worth every penny. I did have a over heat problem that bout drove me nuts but come to find out it was a piece of crap carb block. I bought the ZRC from Rons heliproz south and it droped the temp from 285-290 to 201 with the same carb settings. If you name it i have had a problem with it thats why i think i'm close to being a good gasser setup man. When i fly my spectra it sounds great but when i come into a hover thats when i can tell it's rich and the tail will bounce just a little. I put my Spartan on it and took that 611 off and it hold way better in a hover. I bought a Inertia 860 for my nitro Trex 700 and on Christmas day i was going to try the new gyro out,well with my BAD luck guess what happened,,yes the hex stater shaft broke off in the starter coupler and i still have not been able to get the broke piece out. Let me give you one more tip,don't buy the Mavrick oneway bearing starter shaft thee not worth a crap,,i have had three of them and all three has stripped and the third one broke off in my Trex. Well enuff blabbing let see that hover.


Spectra G 26cc
Jewel
Bat 27cc
Trex 700<br

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12-31-2009 12:44 AM  7 years agoPost 44
Carey Shurley

rrElite Veteran

Orlando, FL - USA

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SO a Zenoah you had 10 years ago is not the same as the Zenoah you would get today.
the little zenoah motors are produced as industrial motors. the tolerances for them can vary quite a bit, so out of the box they haven't been carefully balanced, and in the case of the larger 260 size motor there are dynamic imbalances at the typical RPM's that we run that HAVE to be modified out.

TRM and Hanson are currently the predominant tuners for the helicopter motors at the moment. Wally should be releasing an alternative sometime in the near future. All of these will run much smoother than a stock, out of the box Zenoah G231/260

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12-31-2009 12:51 AM  7 years agoPost 45
rilandtg

rrNovice

Waldorf, MD USA

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I have a question for everyone, both gas and glow. Is there a difference in the appearance of your fuel in the tank from say 3/4 of a tank to 1/4 of a tank? Lets say that there are no visual vibrations anywhere except the gas tank. The reason I ask is that I can't see any vibes on my tail. With 3/4 of a tank of gas I get what appears to be about an 1/8th of an inch or about 3mm of foam when hovering. When I get down to less than a quarter of a tank things change. The fuel becomes more "agitated". Never flew nitro and not alot of experience with gas. Just wondering.

Tim

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12-31-2009 12:59 AM  7 years agoPost 46
James Kovach

rrKey Veteran

canton, oh - US

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Carey,

I fully understand that and said as much when I said that these engines are not purpose built for what we are using them for. But I still stand by that statement you quoted. The quality of the engine they are putting out today is probably not even comparable to what it was 10 years ago. There have been too many advancements not on in the materials being used, but in how they are producing the products.

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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12-31-2009 01:02 AM  7 years agoPost 47
gramey

rrApprentice

United Kingdom

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Ok so the one thing I've learned from the can of worms that I appear to have opened is that I'll need a balanced motor in my TSA when they come out!!!
The only real engine problems I've had with my Spectra have been self inflcited, no surprise there I hear you say, started off using castor oil and gummed up the piston and ring. I was then running a little lean but after getting some running temperatures I was able to tune the motor better. The engine itself is a G231PUH which was tuned by a guy in the UK, Evo tuning, using a Hanson balanced crank. He then lightened and balanced the piston and ported the barrel. My problem is I had it modified before I used it so I don't know how much vibration it would have had before but it seems to run smooth enough?

Dumb thumb specialist

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12-31-2009 01:08 AM  7 years agoPost 48
zorba

rrApprentice

Montreal, Quebec, Canada

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Man those are long threads
I'm just interested to see your up close hover video when you get it.
Same her the video is nice but you kept on cutting the scenes.
I noticed that your heli lifted off before you reached hovering rpm.
Just waiting for that hover video.

cheers

3-450's,rex500ESP,rex600G,Rex700G,Raptor60G,FreyaCW-EXII, VarioEC155, Logo20, Cessna310,CL-415,

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12-31-2009 01:09 AM  7 years agoPost 49
James Kovach

rrKey Veteran

canton, oh - US

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I still fail to see what you are going to get from a hovering video. Yes the tail on mine will kick every so often. Probably about every 2/3 seconds. That is because the engine is running rich in a hover. After speaking with Bill about this a few times, he has told me to not worry about it. No matter how lean I tune it, that kick is going to remain. So why risk my engine for a little bit of tail kick that is only there in a hover? I do not spend a significant amount of time in a hover, so it is of little concern to me. I would rather my engine be properly tuned for the high end as that is where it is going to spend most of its time while running. I get those same little kicks on my Nitro as well because I am running it rich in a hover. Just another thing that is the same between a Gasser and a Nitro.

Can I ask you, exactly what are you expecting to get out of a hovering video? What are you looking for to "throw in my face"? You seem to think I am hiding something? Exactly what is it that you think I am hiding smallplanes?

I am using the new Century Pipe on my Radikal btw.

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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12-31-2009 01:14 AM  7 years agoPost 50
zorba

rrApprentice

Montreal, Quebec, Canada

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I don't think so sparx.
I have a 600 gasser converion and a Raptor 60 converted to gas both are using the G231PUH.
The 600 has the Hanson modified and the Raptor stock. Neither one of them has a kick in the tail. And they are both not quite broken in yet. I run them very rich.
So if you want to believe that the kick is going to be there forever that's fine, but It shouldn't.

3-450's,rex500ESP,rex600G,Rex700G,Raptor60G,FreyaCW-EXII, VarioEC155, Logo20, Cessna310,CL-415,

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12-31-2009 01:18 AM  7 years agoPost 51
Billme

rrElite Veteran

MS

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This engine is purpose built model engine, it is not like the 231 or 26, it is a better built motor...
You guys are missing the point, the engine is pretty smooth in stock form, enough to say that anyway from the ones I have run, and have seen..But to say it is NEEDED, is way off....Yes it can be smoothed out futher by Alan, or Al or Wally if you want perfection, which I'm sure some do..
I'm going to keep one of my engines stock to have something to judge by, and it is glass smooth to me...

Just a year ago, every manufacture turn their nose up at this engine, because they said it was to heavy, and no power..Remember that Chris Bergen, and Carey Shurley? hehehe

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12-31-2009 01:23 AM  7 years agoPost 52
James Kovach

rrKey Veteran

canton, oh - US

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And I am still waiting to hear exactly what a Hovering video is going to tell you?

And yes I cut the scenes in the video.. didnt think you would want to see me tuning the needles every time I landed. Also, keep in mind, that video is from the very first day I had mine flying. Still running extra oil, still letting all the rotating "do hickies" settle in and the engine is not even close to being tuned.

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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12-31-2009 01:31 AM  7 years agoPost 53
James Kovach

rrKey Veteran

canton, oh - US

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zorba,

Do you have any videos of your flying? I sure would like to know your "level" of flying so I can see what you are basing your statements on. Considering you are so concerned with my videos.

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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12-31-2009 01:36 AM  7 years agoPost 54
zorba

rrApprentice

Montreal, Quebec, Canada

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this one is the 600 on its maiden flight back in April that's the only vid I got. And the tail kicks on this vid is because we were trying the responce of the gyro. Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei2qPWAUfgs

3-450's,rex500ESP,rex600G,Rex700G,Raptor60G,FreyaCW-EXII, VarioEC155, Logo20, Cessna310,CL-415,

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12-31-2009 01:37 AM  7 years agoPost 55
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Vibration levels

I am going to be totally honest here. I hope you do not get too offended by it, but I feel the need for some reason.
As you said to me above, I think that you might be reluctant to show a hover video because you are afraid it might negate all the argument you've been making all day today.

Statements like this:
I do not spend a significant amount of time in a hover, so it is of little concern to me. I would rather my engine be properly tuned for the high end as that is where it is going to spend most of its time while running. I get those same little kicks on my Nitro as well because I am running it rich in a hover.
Can I ask you, exactly what are you expecting to get out of a hovering video? What are you looking for to "throw in my face"? You seem to think I am hiding something? Exactly what is it that you think I am hiding smallplanes?
As I said, I will be more than happy to do it when I have the opportunity to do so. But it is not high on my list of priorities because I do not feel I have something I need to find. I seen no difference in yours vs mine.
Makes me think that you're reluctant to do it. But know that whatever the results might show, it in no way has any bearing on you or your capabilities. All we're trying to do here is just compare tail fins, tail pusrods and the amount of fuel agitation, all of which are high frequency engine balance indicators.

Let's not get off track here, I posted video to show how my Hanson motor ran and how smooth is was, and asked the same courtesy of others to compare it and see if indeed it was a well worth investment.

Until comparison videos come in, its all talk and no proof and I'm trying to stick with facts and not theories. If I want that I'll call Ace to come here.

So besides Sparx, anyone else want to show compasison videos?

Edit...after reading your last post, go out, tune your heli, make it the best it can be, and then shoot a video. Don't kill your motor trying to lean it to death to get rid of tail kicks, just adjust it the way you think its running its best and then follow the same video shoot sequence that I did. If you can match the 3 engine speeds that I did that will be great. Details are in my video.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4129 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3187 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1425 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 185 flts

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12-31-2009 01:51 AM  7 years agoPost 56
James Kovach

rrKey Veteran

canton, oh - US

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Ummm... I am reluctant? Do not read more into my posts than is there. I am asking you guys what it is you are looking for from these videos because I just do not get what you are looking for. Yet know one can seem to give me a definite answers. The only reluctance I have against doing that is I am not going to be running out to shoot a video of my heli hovering for 5 minutes when it is less than 20F outside with high winds. I didn't realize that I had to do it RIGHT NOW to show you my willingness to do it.
All we're trying to do here is just compare tail fins, tail pusrods and the amount of fuel agitation, all of which are high frequency engine balance indicators.
And also indicators of unbalanced tail hubs, unbalanced fans, unbalance clutches. You could be running the engine too rich or too lean. There are a number of things that can cause a high freq vib.

You seem to think that I do not feel that having Hanson or any of the other guys balance your engine is a worthy investment? I never said that nor do I think that. I am sure it is if that is something you want to do. Will you gain from it, sure as hell you will. No doubt about it. But what we have been dancing around here is the NEED for it. Does it NEED to be done to have a good running engine.

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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12-31-2009 01:55 AM  7 years agoPost 57
Billme

rrElite Veteran

MS

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Raja,

I'm speaking about the ones having a problem Raja, not a damm foolish contest..
How do you know that rccarguy doesn't have a hub problem that maybe causing his problem? Did you test it? Do you know how to test it?

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12-31-2009 02:06 AM  7 years agoPost 58
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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That's exactly it

Build your helicopter to the best of your ability which I'm sure you've already done and balanced fans, tail hubs or whatnot, and shoot a 3 minute hover video like mine (look at mine to see what to shoot) with different speeds and show the tail, pushrod annd fuel tank clearly. That's all.

No you don't have to do it now. I said before do it on a CALM day as hovering in the view of a 3X zoom on the camera is hard, especially since you need to be close, like no more than 5 feet away I estimate. You're flying skills are beyond that, you can do it. Just do it when its not windy at 20mph as it will just make it harder for you to hover still.

By the way I tried unzoomed, zoomed 2x and the 3x. Unzoomed and 2x where too far away to clearly see the fuel tank even when the heli was close.

No-one ever said you can't fly with a stock motor, everyone can, even with a stock G26. The difference is, with a non balanced motor and more vibrations (what we're trying to show here in videos), I might get through 100 flights OK and you would too, except you may have to replace more parts along the way due to wear. Its not going to show within 10 flights, but make it 100 flights and the difference is going to be measurable, and make it 2000 flights and difference is going to be substantial.
But what we have been dancing around here is the NEED for it. Does it NEED to be done to have a good running engine.
To quote you, no absolutely not you don't NEED to do it. It just all depends on how much maintenance you're willing to put up with.

And I'm NOT trying to do this as a sales pitch, but I guarantee that the money you save on not balancing a gas motor will be spent in short order elsewhere for maintenance or repairs. In the long run, it will end up costing you more along with the extra headaches of maintenance.

I personally only fly balanced motors, because as I most likely stated before, I want to fly and reduce my maintenance or crashes as much as possible within my capabilities. I think I've very well successfully managed to do that, and I would love to see more gasser pilots follow suit!

And why do you think I'm spending all this time to write all these posts? To help you guys SUCCEED

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4129 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3187 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1425 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 185 flts

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12-31-2009 02:08 AM  7 years agoPost 59
James Kovach

rrKey Veteran

canton, oh - US

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Edit...after reading your last post, go out, tune your heli, make it the best it can be, and then shoot a video. Don't kill your motor trying to lean it to death to get rid of tail kicks, just adjust it the way you think its running its best and then follow the same video shoot sequence that I did. If you can match the 3 engine speeds that I did that will be great. Details are in my video.
And this is where I do not understand what you guys are looking for. You sure as hell bet I can tune that engine to be rock solid in a hover. Not a problem. But what good is that? You are tuning for hover. You are not tuning where it matters.

zorba, I watched that video and this is exactly what I am talking about. If that is how you flew that heli to tune the engine, of course you are not going to have any tail kicks. You have optimized your tune for a hover. I would expect it to be rock solid. Now if you tune your engine for Top End, you are going to sacrifice some low end, read HOVER performance, to do so. This is the same with all engines.

Here is a little graph to show you what I mean

On this particular flight, I decided I wanted to run 1900 RPM with that gear ratio. I found it to be close to the "sweet spot". Up to just around 1min 30secs I am warming the engine up. You see I land, RPM drop to idle and then take off agian. I then switch to my 1900rpm flight mod. Put it in a hover and did a full collective climbout. Hmm, didn't respond how I wanted. Seems lean? So I land an richen the need. Repeat. Whoops wrong way, it wasn't lean it was rich. Land and lean the needle. Punch out again.. hey getting better. Look at the temps on the graph, it is reflective of what I am seeing in flight. Land and lean her up a bit more. Do a few full collective punches again. Now that seems better. I like how that sounds. Look at the temps. It is now up where it should be. BTW, I did not take my temp gun with me as by now I have figured out how to tune it pretty well by ear and how it is responding as I am flying it. For the next 6 mins I beat on that heli as best I could, oh remember my post a few back where I talked about forgetting to tighten down all my engine bolts well, this is one of those flight. Look at the temps. It is holding right where it should be.

Now to what I want you to really see. The last 45 seconds of that graph, from 13min 12sec on, I am sitting in a hover. Look what happens to the temps during that time. The are falling the entire time. This is why I say, you do not want to tune your heli in a hover. If you did that, then when you started loading up the heli, your temps are going to be too high.

Let's say I tuned it in a hover and using a temp gun. I would hover.. hmm temps are still low. Let's lean it up some more. Ok temps getting better. Lean it up a bit more... cool.. temp is now about 200F. Perfect right. Now I go and start flying the heli and loading up the engine, all the sudden it is running lean and over heating.

Your video you posted gives me the impression that is how you tuned your heli. If I am wrong, I am sorry. But that is the impression I got.

EDIT: BTW, this is a common issue I see people have with Nitro Engines as well. People do not understand that as your skills progress, you need to stay on top of how your engine is tuned. As you progress you will be working the engine harder than you were before. This will require a needle adjustment.

*disclaimer: These are my opinions. Agree or disagree, Your Call :)
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12-31-2009 02:10 AM  7 years agoPost 60
rccarguy

rrVeteran

Boston MA

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How do you know that rccarguy doesn't have a hub problem that maybe causing his problem?
As I clearly stated before, unbalanced tail blades, loose belt and engine tuning, fixed all that and the issues Raja descibed were gone. Yes, the fuel in the tank sloshes around, doesn't bother me, nothing is getting loose or falling off, the tail pushrod doesn't vibrate anymore, nor does the tail fin. I'm perfectly happy witht he way it runs and flys. If Raja feels that the fuel sloshes around too much, he's entitled to have that opinion. As I said it doesn't bother me, and I'm not going to lose any sleep over whether or not the engine should be balanced by anyones opinion but mine, that's the only one that counts to me.
I can tell you started off wrong by using mineral oil..I would not be surprised if you haven't stuck a ring, which would make it shake...
By the way Bill, I'm still waiting for answer to what I should have used for break-in oil since you stated in another thread the following...
For break in I use a petro base oil mixed no leaner than 32:1.
Exactly what I did use, non synthetic oil at 32:1, so how can you tell me I started off wrong when you have no idea of what I did or did not do?

XCell Spectra G
Radikal G20
Some obsolete nitro helis too...

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