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Other › Power loss in 4S setup need help
03-22-2009 05:00 PM  8 years agoPost 1
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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Hi guys : )
I've got a power loss on my 4S setup -10/14T/350's/CC Phoenix 35/Hobbywing Ubec/Outrage25C.
Here are some informations about the problem >>

-during firsts ~10 flights, climbouts, tictocs were just insane and I was very happy with my setup. I had the feeling of unlimited power.
-now it's more and more like 3S setup with sport brushless. Climbouts aren't impressive, tic tocs aren't dynamics.... And I loose easily rpm during manoeuvers.
-It happens after a crash, but there are other factors. It was not a big difference during firsts flights after crash, and now it's very noticeable.
-I changed Scorpion shaft and bearings by security, it doen't change anything. But perhaps the motor is internally damaged? Hard to know...
-I change main axis bearings which were damaged only in a recent second crash. No effect on power.
-All the transmission has new gears, good mesh, good lubrification everywhere like I've done it since first flight. For me it's not a mechanical issue.
-Since 5th flight, I used gov mode "set rpm" which was working flawlessly with lot of power at 3200 rpm almost all the flight with timing set to 15. The flight with the crash before power loss appears, I upped my Phoenix 35 timing from 15 to 20. There was less power and tail was hold not perfectly during climbouts. I'm sure this ESC is in the limits on the Rave. Perhaps it has been slghtly damaged by this timing setting....Yesterday I used curved mode with fixed endpoints. I was used to use this setting on my 3DX. It makes nothing in power change, except that there is more power decrease during flight.
-In past on other heli, a basic Sonix ESC had more punch than the CC with similar high timing settings. So this confirms me the CC35 is not a F1 ESC.
-Outrage batteries were certainly not used perfectly.... I'm not at ease with DX7 timer and almost always forget it. I always use lipo saver, but hadn't got one during all this period. BUT... my cutoff was set on 12V = 3V per cell which is the limit. I entered in cutoff ONLY ONE TIME on first 20 flights (2 Outrage = 10 flights per lipo). After these ones, I buyied a Maxpro liposaver which always bip at 3.3 v per cell. When the first isolate bip appears during flight in amp draw >> I land immediately. I made 10 flights with this Lipo saver, so my Outrage battery have ~15 cycles each. Can they have been damaged? Or I've stayed in good limits?

So for me there are 3 possibilities:
>>Scorpion motor is damaged
>>Phoenix 35 is damaged
>>Outrage batteries are damaged

What do you think about this?
Need some helps before invest money to resolv the issue...

Thanks
Jsx

~¤°Rave~4S/350¤Trex250°¤~

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03-22-2009 05:18 PM  8 years agoPost 2
KennyS

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Marble Falls, Tx

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I am curious, what size battery and what kind of flight times are you running?

Only Fine Helis, Hobbywing

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03-22-2009 05:22 PM  8 years agoPost 3
USNAviationjay

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Houston Tx USA

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Err wait a second you are trying to go 4S -10 on a CC35?

that ESC is marginal and not recomended even for the 3S -6 setup.. its being punished on the 4S setup..

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03-22-2009 05:31 PM  8 years agoPost 4
caseyjholmes

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Portland, Oregon

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If you replaced the bearings and shaft in the motor and it still spins nice and freely and no bad properties, or noticeable burnt coils,

I would look toward the ESC or batteries.

The batteries charge ok? What voltage do they reach?
Do you do storage charge on the batteries after use?
No puffing on the battery?

Does the ESC get very hot?
Are you using a separate BEC?
Did you check to be sure the ESC to motor connectors are very solid?
Pinion slipping on the motor shaft?

Just some initial thoughts.
Hope you get it ironed out!
Sounds like maybe the battery or ESC.

When I fly I do not/try not to use voltage cutoff. I want to make sure to keep rotor speed even if it costs me a battery pack. It will likely cost me more if the motor cuts than the cost of a battery pack. For this reason I usually cut my flight times short by a clean minute on purpose. Then I am never anywhere near losing "juice" or taxing the battery.

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03-22-2009 05:33 PM  8 years agoPost 5
JSX

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France

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Excuse me KennyS.... Outrage 25C 2200 mah, 4:30~5:30 flight times depending of my flying mood My flying style is more speed flying, large aerobatics, learning tictocs etc. Now I use 100 flat curve to have more HS and have the Rave on rails in fast flying.
So UsaAviationjay you think it's the ESC? I wanted to give it a try before buying a new one.... Finally, I'll certainly get a Thunderpower 40A like lot of people here. Everybody say Mini-G is a monster, I just buyed one and it's true!!!!! So I believe feedbacks about TP ESC!

~¤°Rave~4S/350¤Trex250°¤~

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03-22-2009 05:35 PM  8 years agoPost 6
ke6d

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San Jose, CA

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The 35A ESC is fine for 4S setup since the -10 motor is rated at around 500W. On a 4S (14.8V) setup the ESC will see around 33A at the max power rating of the motor.

It is not recommended for 3S -6 motor setup because the current will be higher (P = IV)

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03-22-2009 05:53 PM  8 years agoPost 7
KennyS

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Marble Falls, Tx

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Outrage 25C 2200 mah, 4:30~5:30 flight times
Do you know what temp the battery's are when your through flying? How much are you putting back into the pack with your done? Average?

Kenny

Only Fine Helis, Hobbywing

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03-22-2009 05:54 PM  8 years agoPost 8
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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Hi Casey
I feel too the Scorpion is ok.
The batteries charge ok? What voltage do they reach?
Do you do storage charge on the batteries after use?
No puffing on the battery?
-Batteries charges ok. Beginning at 3.83/3.85, ending at 4.20 on each cell. I controlled them with a voltmeter of course.
-Never store them... I used them almost everyday.
-No puffing on them. Perhaps a very little bit, but don't think it's cells. I've read somewhere it's normal on Outrage because there is some air in them and shrink can "puff" a little bit.
-After flight they are only on the cold side of warm.
Does the ESC get very hot?
Are you using a separate BEC?
Did you check to be sure the ESC to motor connectors are very solid?
Pinion slipping on the motor shaft?
-ESC is on the hot side of warm, but definitively not hot. But... I runned it intensitive setting and had a hard landing because of the ESC protection. So I set it to disabled. I prefered take the risk...
-I use Hobbywing Ubec 3A/6V to avoid CC ESC limits in 4S and get more speed on tail serv. I used it in past with 3S too. It works very well
-I'll check Motor/ESC connectors, but they are no intermitants cuts in power loss...
-The motor shaft is absolutely round, no flat cut on it for stopping the pignon screw. I thinked about this and made one with my dremel. But the fact is I haven't got any gyro issues which normally should be associated with pinion slipping....

I agree with you, usually I never use cutoff. It was the time to get the liposaver. I always forget the timer, on DX7 there is no possibility to activate it with thro stick like on some TX.
Now I'll set the cutoff voltage to 2 V

~¤°Rave~4S/350¤Trex250°¤~

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03-22-2009 06:04 PM  8 years agoPost 9
JSX

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France

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Hi Ke6D I know that. But difference between Trex 4S and Rave 4S are blades: 350's are longer, wider, slighly heavier than 325's, and I run +/-12° at 3000/3200 rpm. So perhaps I reach the CC35 limits. I know it can handle 45 A peaks. The -10 can take 42 A for 440W. So... perhaps at the end of flight, because voltage is lower I'm in the amps limits to get a similar power.

Kenny, when I land I immediately touch motor, ESC and batteries and everything is only warm at each flight. Can't mesure it cause I can't find the battery's bottom to take its temp , but it was a good surprise for me.
I put 1800/2000 mah in the battery. It's certainly too much, but like I wrote I used cutoff set to 3V per cell and enter in it only one time. I put less since I used the liposaver with 3.3V per cell limit, more 1800/1850 mah. But I feel these Outrages arent't real 2200mah, and can get really more in them.

~¤°Rave~4S/350¤Trex250°¤~

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03-22-2009 06:39 PM  8 years agoPost 10
KennyS

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Marble Falls, Tx

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Just as a thought.

As a rule of thumb for me and more especially since I am buying the battery's I will limit my flight times to somewhere in the 60 percent of the capacity mark, general idea is 80%. But I want my battery's to last longer. Typically on a 2100 pack I will put back 1200 to 1300 mah back in. I am limiting my flight times to 4.5 minutes. This may increase slightly just because I am experimenting with a different esc, head speed etc... But the idea remains. I am also going to try a Outrage 30c 2200 pack.

Since your running a hotter setup yours will be different. Just food for thought but it sounds like your battery's may be some of the problem at least.

I have heard other people say that the TP40 esc will be able to use more of the available power that a battery has. I can say with certainty that this is an accurate statement. I have battery's now that are over a year old with many flights on them that did not perform as well in a Castle esc. Much to my surprise with the TP40 esc I was able to get a bit more rpm/power out of the motor.

Now I am not totally sold on it yet because I have had at least one unexplainable crash when the motor died. But I flew yesterday several times with it and not problems. I was even running at 3400 head speed and wow it was fun.

Kenny

Only Fine Helis, Hobbywing

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03-22-2009 06:53 PM  8 years agoPost 11
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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Thks
So you thinked I killed the Outrages? It's strange because in that case if I respect these 60% my flight times will be 3:30 or less!!
About power loss, to give you an idea, at the beginning of my Rave I had ~3400 rpm at 100% thro. Now it's ~3000 rpm after 15 cycles per battery There is a big problem. I feel batteries are the main cause, and feel ESC is not very efficient on this setup and can get better results with TP. Need to spend lot of money again

Sorry for your crash, hope you'll fly again quickly : )

~¤°Rave~4S/350¤Trex250°¤~

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03-22-2009 07:44 PM  8 years agoPost 12
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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Is there a way to test a battery?

~¤°Rave~4S/350¤Trex250°¤~

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03-22-2009 07:55 PM  8 years agoPost 13
caseyjholmes

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Portland, Oregon

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With the 14T pinion and a good 25c 2200 pack, 3:30 to 4 minutes sounds about right to me while being conservative on the packs.
I found about 4 - 4:30 on the 13T pinion with 25c 2200 pack on 4s.
Could probably stretch that out to 5 mins or more with mild flight.

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03-22-2009 08:03 PM  8 years agoPost 14
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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Or with collective management which I need to learn
I don't tryied yet 13 T setup. Tomorrow I'll mount my Rhino 13 T and set ESC timing to 20 with 100% flat curve and +/- 13° and see for results.

~¤°Rave~4S/350¤Trex250°¤~

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03-22-2009 08:37 PM  8 years agoPost 15
ke6d

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San Jose, CA

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JSX,

Perhaps you should put an EagleTree recorder on your Rave and take some log. I run 350mm blades here on the -10 motor with Outrage 4S 25C packs. I fly for 4-4:30 min. The most I have ever seen on the recorder was around 30A.

Since the -10 motor only rated for 440W, attempting to push it beyond its rating would result in a burnt out motor.

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03-22-2009 09:06 PM  8 years agoPost 16
KennyS

rrKey Veteran

Marble Falls, Tx

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The idea behind any power system is to build in head room so it can breath. If your running 100% curve then there is no margin for error.

Since no two people fly exactly the same the comments that I am making are just generalized. In other words, my setup works for me but it may not work for you.

Kenny

Only Fine Helis, Hobbywing

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03-22-2009 10:40 PM  8 years agoPost 17
JSX

rrApprentice

France

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Ke6d thanks for this precious info. I'm almost sure now the ESC is not faulty. Need to buy new batteries ...
Kenny I'll try some other settings just for see the results. 100% flat curve with 10 timing will be perhaps better. Or 13T on 20 timing. These batteries are an opportunity to optimise my setup to have this head room. The overall feeling too is loss of torque. If I can run these Outrage more decently, it will be coolest for next batteries set too.

~¤°Rave~4S/350¤Trex250°¤~

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