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HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsOther › V-bar first flights tail question
03-22-2009 02:00 AM  8 years agoPost 1
beavis1

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New York state

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Ah after staring at it all winter I finally got to fly the V-bar. Not so scary. First hop noted trim I needed and rates. put it on the pc added some trim and next hop felt nice. Then the crank on my YS broke :-(

In hover no drift looked good no oscilation.
full power climb out the tail was perfect. on a decent the nose went right IE I had to hold a little left till i got back to positive pitch
I assume I need to change the tail acceleration ? Sounds like I need to drop it a little as it is over compensation ?

I did not do any inverted climbs for clues, but decending it should not spin.

I think the faster or more I dropped the stick the more it rotated.

Again not more than 1/8 of a turn it was gradual but noticable

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03-22-2009 03:43 AM  8 years agoPost 2
3Dx

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Monterrey NL

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Sounds like I need to drop it a little as it is over compensation ?
Yes I think this may be your problem, try with no compensation, it should work well.

If you like send me your file, I can take a look

Team JR/Spektrum, Team Vibe, Team CYE, Team Next D/Rave, Team Outrange Batteries, Team RedFox Fuel

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03-22-2009 04:45 AM  8 years agoPost 3
tchavei

rrProfessor

Portugal

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I would need to see your file or at least all PID+C parameters to help but in the end I probably would suggest for you to remove tail compensations all together, increase I value until the tail stats wipping during sudden stops and then back off 2-3 points. The main part of good tail authority during normal flight is P so dont go down on that. D comes handy to make the tail snappier but not needed.

You don't say what machine but on a good 50 sized you should be able to get about I=42 or so. On a 90 maybe even 45-50. The smaller the bird the less I you can have before whipping starts.

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

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03-22-2009 08:43 PM  8 years agoPost 4
beavis1

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New York state

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Thanks for the reply here are my screens currently .

I have a Knight 50 with the Knight factory flybarless head

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03-23-2009 01:12 AM  8 years agoPost 5
tchavei

rrProfessor

Portugal

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Thx

Here is my advice

Regarding tail:

1) What curves are you running? strait pitch curve with a 3D setup? If so, that "zero collective" parameter is wrong. The way you have it, the system assumes no load at -8 points of pitch (under middle stick). put it at 0 if you running a simetrical pitch curve

2) zero out your tail compensations, increase I to about 42 and P to about 85-90. Try to keep common gain 5 points under whatever you have on P. If you end up with P at 90 that would mean 85 on common gain.

3) Adjust your piro optimization as explained in the Vbar wiki. You should get around 30 points to get a perfect match (can go from 26 up to 34, it really depends on the unit).

Regarding cyclics:

1) increase your cyclic gain (bottom of the screen) from 100 to 109. Only that way will the geometry correction work properly. Please adjust the cyclic ring after this because you will have more authority by increasing the gain.

2) Why do you have separate gains on your cyclic (30/40)? You shouldn't mess with that parameter and keep it default 30.

3)paddle weight is rather low which will give you a twichy bird in a hover. I would increase it to 100. It has no effect on agility. Just stability around center stick.

Regarding the common setup:

1) don't forget to fine trim for max and min pitch. 8 on top and -8 on bottom should be a good start. Check the bird during full climbouts and increase/decrease that value as necessary.

2) I see you're using classic mode... trim the heli in 1) and then switch over to ultra mode. It works much better. Increase the cyclic proportional until you get oscilations (or up to 300) and then go a little back. 250-300 has proved to be a good value.

I hope this helps
Let us know how it goes.

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

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03-23-2009 05:32 AM  8 years agoPost 6
3Dx

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Monterrey NL

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I insist Tony! You should help us Beta Testing the 4.0!!

Team JR/Spektrum, Team Vibe, Team CYE, Team Next D/Rave, Team Outrange Batteries, Team RedFox Fuel

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03-23-2009 04:50 PM  8 years agoPost 7
tchavei

rrProfessor

Portugal

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3Dx: You know that that is not my call. I already offered for a portuguese translation of the software. No reply.

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

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03-23-2009 10:06 PM  8 years agoPost 8
beavis1

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New York state

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WOW thanks ! great walk thru

I really appreciate the time to type that all up it probably saved me hours of trial and error. Mostly error LOL
Regarding tail:

1) What curves are you running? strait pitch curve with a 3D setup? If so, that "zero collective" parameter is wrong. The way you have it, the system assumes no load at -8 points of pitch (under middle stick). put it at 0 if you running a simetrical pitch curve

A .Yes I see that now I just went to center stick and pressed the set. My TX must be off or I was just off center will fix

2) zero out your tail compensations, increase I to about 42 and P to about 85-90. Try to keep common gain 5 points under whatever you have on P. If you end up with P at 90 that would mean 85 on common gain.

A Will DO sounds like this is what the hot set up is now. Thats great the compensation was like old school revo mix glad not to have to mess with it

3) Adjust your piro optimization as explained in the Vbar wiki. You should get around 30 points to get a perfect match (can go from 26 up to 34, it really depends on the unit).

A. Yes I set it to off as I was intimitated and figured I would hit it next

Regarding cyclics:

1) increase your cyclic gain (bottom of the screen) from 100 to 109. Only that way will the geometry correction work properly. Please adjust the cyclic ring after this because you will have more authority by increasing the gain.

A. ok sounds good

2) Why do you have separate gains on your cyclic (30/40)? You shouldn't mess with that parameter and keep it default 30.

A I read it some place to be 10 onver on the one will set it back to 30 and 30

3)paddle weight is rather low which will give you a twichy bird in a hover. I would increase it to 100. It has no effect on agility. Just stability around center stick.
A Yes it was a little unstable feeling will do

Regarding the common setup:

1) don't forget to fine trim for max and min pitch. 8 on top and -8 on bottom should be a good start. Check the bird during full climbouts and increase/decrease that value as necessary.

A Can I do that with a swash leveler same as I would do on a standard bird ? just setting it on the screen

2) I see you're using classic mode... trim the heli in 1) and then switch over to ultra mode. It works much better. Increase the cyclic proportional until you get oscilations (or up to 300) and then go a little back. 250-300 has proved to be a good value.

A I have the silver unit does it also do ultra mode ? I am at the highest rev. firmware

I hope the serial V4.0 is not far behind the USB flavor

I hope this helps
Let us know how it goes.

Tony

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03-24-2009 01:51 AM  8 years agoPost 9
tchavei

rrProfessor

Portugal

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Np.

Regarding your questions:
A I read it some place to be 10 onver on the one will set it back to 30 and 30
Err... the person who said that probably ment paddle steering intensity and Bell... not gyro gains. On a V-bar, the faster axis is usually elevator so in order to get a linear feel, many increase bell by 5 and PSI by 2 or 3. I would leave them the same and adjust with dual rates on the faster axis until it matches the slower axis. Unless you're doing piro maneuvers (read as piroflips, chaos or anything else that involves stick stiring) you won't even notice the difference.
Can I do that with a swash leveler same as I would do on a standard bird ? just setting it on the screen
Well, no... those 8 points (or whatever your bird needs) are fine trims on top and bottom pitch. What happens is that the V-bar tends to pitch up a little on full climbouts and dive the nose on full descents. These trims are put so the bird goes up and down perfectly level. Those same trims also make the bird track better or worse during consequtive FF rolls. Funny thing is that I managed to co-relate the size of the horizontal fin with those trims. It seems that the larger the horizontal fin, the more trim you need.
have the silver unit does it also do ultra mode ? I am at the highest rev. firmware
Yes, they all do. There are 4 versions of the Vbar.

Gen 1: metal sensor, serial connector, sensor must be configured as E-sensor and piro opt is around 45. Analog signal processing.

gen2: metal sensor, serial connector, sensor must be configured as IC-sensor, piro opt around 30. Analog signal processing.

gen3: metal sensor, usb connector, sensor must be configures as IC-sensor, piro opt around 30. Analog signal processing.

gen4: plastic sensor, usb connector, sensor must be configured as IC-sensor, piro opt around 30. Digital signal processing.
I hope the serial V4.0 is not far behind the USB flavor
I have no idea. I was told that both versions would come out at the same time although the metal version would have 90% of the gen4 features. Anyway, don't feel bad. If someone gives you a hard time because you have the metal sensor, just reply: "And how many mAh are you burning per flight?" That will usually shut them up.

My plastic Vbar draws twice as much as my friends metal sensor. It gets annoying lol.

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

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03-24-2009 03:53 AM  8 years agoPost 10
beavis1

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New York state

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how can I tell if I have a E sensor or IC sensor

Thanks again looking forward to this weekend already !!

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03-24-2009 10:22 AM  8 years agoPost 11
tchavei

rrProfessor

Portugal

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Thats easy. Just choose one and go into piro optimization. If the end value is close to 30, its an IC-sensor, if its closer to 45, its a E-Sensor.

Good Luck

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

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03-27-2009 04:31 AM  8 years agoPost 12
beavis1

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New York state

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Everythign set per recd and ready to go

on optimization

ok to get the line and the heli to move together I have -28. Is a negative figure correct ? I set the sensor to IC as it was close to 30

Is -28 ok ? they move 1 to 1

Also the wiki page says the swash should do somthing I can verify when I put in elevator and rotate the heli. I do not see anything ?

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03-28-2009 03:59 AM  8 years agoPost 13
tchavei

rrProfessor

Portugal

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funny... -28 is exactly what I have

About the elevator moving... don't know never tried it and I doubt you can see it moving since in ultra mode, not everything what you see, is and vice versa (this also aplies to pitch reading). Even if you value is off, it just will make a wobbly piro, nothing that can seriously risk your bird. Just try it. Last time I tested tail compensation I managed 29 piros on the same spot before needing correction

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

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03-28-2009 09:43 PM  8 years agoPost 14
Mapleleafs

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Ontario, Canada

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funny... -28 is exactly what I have
same here !!

Vbar Trex 700N, Vbar MSH Protos 500, Vbar Logo 400

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03-28-2009 10:46 PM  8 years agoPost 15
beavis1

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New York state

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Oh wow

All I can say is thanks. I have a tweak here and there but holy cow the heli flew incredibe ! I really appreciate it

The tail was far better than my 601/611 have ever been. hover was rock stable and everything was just perfect. I may speed the cyclics a tad thats about it...

I really appreciate the help !

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03-29-2009 12:24 AM  8 years agoPost 16
tchavei

rrProfessor

Portugal

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Thats what matters

To speed up cyclic, remember... work your way up with PSI and Bell. Don't touch paddle weight value. My cyclic are currently at 105/52 and it puts my flybar protos to shame. I'm going to reduce cyclic throw a little to match both birds or its no use training on both.

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

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04-12-2009 01:24 AM  8 years agoPost 17
beavis1

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New York state

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ultra mode query

Ok it was windy real windy today

I have not switched to ultra mode yet. I flew in the wind and it seemed to get pushed by the wind more than if it were a regular helicopter ?

I went to ultra mode and it was real real unstable feeling. All I did was click the ultra mode. I see the range of rate goes up to 500 un ultra. I was at 100 in classic should I be higher in ultra mode ?

Will ultra mode make it feel better in wind ? and or why did th ewind make it feel so different?

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04-13-2009 09:08 AM  8 years agoPost 18
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta,​Canada

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With ultra you want your elevator prop around 275-300 and your aileron around 135-150.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

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